Spinal implants - great breakthrough

[sk_tle]

French and swiss neuroscientists developped an implant that allowed instant ability to regain motricity in the legs after spinal injury. So great to hear that.

https://www.economist.com/science-an...again/21807596

[spopepro]

This is cool, especially for young folks with trauma, rather than other injuries. However I’m not so sure it’s as great an achievement as the press is portraying.

My dad is a T-2 incomplete paraplegic. It was medical, something similar to a stroke that killed the nerves in his spine so he has some feeling and oddities of motor control in his core. Complete injuries are more clear cut, if you’ll pardon the pun. It happened to my dad when I was 9. I spent a fair bit of time imagining, hoping, thinking that something would happen either medically or technologically to help my dad walk again, but later in life I realized it was not something to hope for. Paras and quads lose muscle mass and control so quickly that unless you do this nearly immediately it’s not a viable option. Furthermore, they need sensory control. I saw folks that looked like in the videos who had incomplete injuries where they had full motor control but no sensory feedback. Ultimately those folks ended up in wheelchairs even though they had full movement in their legs. It’s ridiculously hard and dangerous to walk when you can’t feel anything below your waist.

I don’t want to sound like the more extreme elements of the deaf community who think that there’s nothing “wrong” with them, they don’t need fixing, and stuff like cochlear implants is abuse. I never got to ride bikes (I do have his Raleigh international that I ride sometimes), go backpacking, or play golf with him. But my dad taught full time middle school science for 8 years from a chair, coached and refereed basketball, and that’s who he is. I’m not entirely sure if people in wheelchairs want this as much as the rest of the world wants it for them.

[Too Tall]

This is cool, especially for young folks with trauma, rather than other injuries. However I’m not so sure it’s as great an achievement as the press is portraying.

My dad is a T-2 incomplete paraplegic. It was medical, something similar to a stroke that killed the nerves in his spine so he has some feeling and oddities of motor control in his core. Complete injuries are more clear cut, if you’ll pardon the pun. It happened to my dad when I was 9. I spent a fair bit of time imagining, hoping, thinking that something would happen either medically or technologically to help my dad walk again, but later in life I realized it was not something to hope for. Paras and quads lose muscle mass and control so quickly that unless you do this nearly immediately it’s not a viable option. Furthermore, they need sensory control. I saw folks that looked like in the videos who had incomplete injuries where they had full motor control but no sensory feedback. Ultimately those folks ended up in wheelchairs even though they had full movement in their legs. It’s ridiculously hard and dangerous to walk when you can’t feel anything below your waist.

I don’t want to sound like the more extreme elements of the deaf community who think that there’s nothing “wrong” with them, they don’t need fixing, and stuff like cochlear implants is abuse. I never got to ride bikes (I do have his Raleigh international that I ride sometimes), go backpacking, or play golf with him. But my dad taught full time middle school science for 8 years from a chair, coached and refereed basketball, and that’s who he is. I’m not entirely sure if people in wheelchairs want this as much as the rest of the world wants it for them.

That is a meaningful heartfelt insight so thanks. I might not have processed this without your share.

[sk_tle]

This is cool, especially for young folks with trauma, rather than other injuries. However I’m not so sure it’s as great an achievement as the press is portraying.

My dad is a T-2 incomplete paraplegic. It was medical, something similar to a stroke that killed the nerves in his spine so he has some feeling and oddities of motor control in his core. Complete injuries are more clear cut, if you’ll pardon the pun. It happened to my dad when I was 9. I spent a fair bit of time imagining, hoping, thinking that something would happen either medically or technologically to help my dad walk again, but later in life I realized it was not something to hope for. Paras and quads lose muscle mass and control so quickly that unless you do this nearly immediately it’s not a viable option. Furthermore, they need sensory control. I saw folks that looked like in the videos who had incomplete injuries where they had full motor control but no sensory feedback. Ultimately those folks ended up in wheelchairs even though they had full movement in their legs. It’s ridiculously hard and dangerous to walk when you can’t feel anything below your waist.

I don’t want to sound like the more extreme elements of the deaf community who think that there’s nothing “wrong” with them, they don’t need fixing, and stuff like cochlear implants is abuse. I never got to ride bikes (I do have his Raleigh international that I ride sometimes), go backpacking, or play golf with him. But my dad taught full time middle school science for 8 years from a chair, coached and refereed basketball, and that’s who he is. I’m not entirely sure if people in wheelchairs want this as much as the rest of the world wants it for them.

Well having options if we can is good no? And if it is only useful for people suffering from a recent trauma, that is already something.

Having said that I injured just a finger at the beginning of the week and I realise every time I injured myself and lose some form of mobility how adaptive we can be when something do not work anymore as well as the technical challenges our societies are creating for a number of us just by not taking disabilities as well as getting old into account.

[bking]

This is cool, especially for young folks with trauma, rather than other injuries. However I’m not so sure it’s as great an achievement as the press is portraying.

My dad is a T-2 incomplete paraplegic. It was medical, something similar to a stroke that killed the nerves in his spine so he has some feeling and oddities of motor control in his core. Complete injuries are more clear cut, if you’ll pardon the pun. It happened to my dad when I was 9. I spent a fair bit of time imagining, hoping, thinking that something would happen either medically or technologically to help my dad walk again, but later in life I realized it was not something to hope for. Paras and quads lose muscle mass and control so quickly that unless you do this nearly immediately it’s not a viable option. Furthermore, they need sensory control. I saw folks that looked like in the videos who had incomplete injuries where they had full motor control but no sensory feedback. Ultimately those folks ended up in wheelchairs even though they had full movement in their legs. It’s ridiculously hard and dangerous to walk when you can’t feel anything below your waist.

I don’t want to sound like the more extreme elements of the deaf community who think that there’s nothing “wrong” with them, they don’t need fixing, and stuff like cochlear implants is abuse. I never got to ride bikes (I do have his Raleigh international that I ride sometimes), go backpacking, or play golf with him. But my dad taught full time middle school science for 8 years from a chair, coached and refereed basketball, and that’s who he is. I’m not entirely sure if people in wheelchairs want this as much as the rest of the world wants it for them.

Thinks makes me think of a young man I watched grow up from about 7 or 8 years old, some of you may have heard of him, Aaron Fotheringham. He didn't use a wheelchair until he was nearer 10 or 11. He just scooted himself on the floor. Years later I remember him commenting to someone how sorry he felt for us, we had to walk everywhere. He sat. I took him to a high adventure scout camp and we made plans on how we would work things out for him so he didn't feel left out. We needn't have bothered, he had plans of his own. He was a kid in everyway, did everything, attacked everything. I don't know if Aaron knew he was handicapped when he was young. And even now I don't think he ever thinks of himself as handicapped, or limited. In fact, he's spent a fair bit of time feeling sorry for us. I get that he's a rare individual. Sounds like your father was as well.

[Too Tall]

That's so true Bruce. I was recruited to train potential paralympic tandem athletes at the OTC. We had a blast with the athletes. Apparently I was the only dork who would lead them on their adventures without reservations. They would form a train off my arm and we'd go looking for trouble ;) They DRILLED it into my head that in competition they wanted to be judged against able bodied. The following year I threw a blind stoker tandem training camp. These people were unreal, super talented putting sighted folks to shame....than there was Scott the one legger who refused to listen to me how to descend Winter Green Mtn. Oy. The dewd had a front tire blow out in the steep section from over braking...kept it up and repaired the tire and kept going. Friggin insane. Love these people for what they are.

Thanks guys for the reminder that "not like us" is nothing to stare at, question or pity.

PS their pet names for the various versions of "para" were pretty rude ;)

[Philster]

I’ve been very lucky when it comes to general health but trauma is a different story. If I needed this treatment, I’d be very thankful that it exists. Thanks for sharing.

[steve garro]

I'm sorry, but this is bullshit.

This shit comes up every few months looking for funding and toting some miracle cure along with it and let me tell you, if it was real it would be lighting up the gimp channels that I'm tuned into like wildfire - it's like your old aunt who knows you are "Into Bikes" so she sends you all these strider bike videos, sheesh............I get all these miracle cure videos from well........old aunts and the ilk.

There's no way we now know of to cure a complete spinal cord injury or for that matter, and incomplete one (this is what I have) once the path is broken, it is broken and it doesn't re-connect.

Be wary of claims that someone was "totally paralyzed" and worked on quickly and that the gains were from that as in reality you generally have 18 months post injury to see what card you have been dealt - for example, I can walk with crutches whereas when I was just woken up from 10 days in a come post trauma I had spinal shock so bad I could only wiggle the tips of two fingers.

Miracle or healing and hard work?
You decide.

You'll know this stuff is real when you see guys like Zanardi doing the waltz or young military injuries (perfect as they have drive, are young, and were healthy) goign back to their previous lives.

Us people in chairs, generally, we put more faith in robotics as we realize that stuff WORKS and if there was just funding in it it could be a reality (but those billionaires need to go to space, yo) and in general we would like to be recognized as functioning people who actually like our bodies as much of a pain in the ass as they can be (literally) and would rather see better access and funding for robotics for the masses of us then miracle cures and being lab rats - like a friend said when he went to see the movie "Avatar" ="well, humans can shape shift and space travel, but no advancement in wheelchairs at all."

Glad to field question, let 'em rip.

- Garro.

[vertical_doug]

I'm sorry, but this is bullshit.

would rather see better access and funding for robotics for the masses of us then miracle cures and being lab rats - like a friend said when he went to see the movie "Avatar" ="well, humans can shape shift and space travel, but no advancement in wheelchairs at all."


- Garro.

It's like a joke that was going around about Elon Musk a couple years ago- Press: "Elon, you discovered how to manipulate genetics and can cure any disease, what are you going to do with it? "
Elon: "I'm going to make a dinosaur... grrr"


Thanks for your brutal honesty.

[steve garro]

It's like a joke that was going around about Elon Musk a couple years ago- Press: "Elon, you discovered how to manipulate genetics and can cure any disease, what are you going to do with it? "
Elon: "I'm going to make a dinosaur... grrr"


Thanks for your brutal honesty.

Oh, man.......except that exactly what he would do.


Even the good doctor on the OP states:


"There is still a long way to go before the technology can be used routinely to help paralysed people to walk, according to Prof Grégoire Courtine, who led the team that developed the technology at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL).
"This is not a cure for spinal cord injury. But it is a critical step to improve people's quality of life. We are going to empower people. We are going to give them the ability to stand, to take some steps. It is not enough, but it is a significant improvement."
A cure would require regeneration of the spinal cord, possibly with stem cell therapies, which are still at a very early stage of research. Prof Courtine believes that his implant technology could be used in conjunction with nerve regeneration treatments once they are ready."

I applaud his efforts, but the media really should temper it's headlines, I mean, I googled "Device helps paralyzed man to walk" and there was 5.5 million hits - but I don't know anyone who has and I'm on all the Gimp Channels.

- Garro.

[steve garro]

It's like a joke that was going around about Elon Musk a couple years ago- Press: "Elon, you discovered how to manipulate genetics and can cure any disease, what are you going to do with it? "
Elon: "I'm going to make a dinosaur... grrr"


Thanks for your brutal honesty.

Oh, man.......except that's exactly what he would do.


Even the good doctor on the OP states:


"There is still a long way to go before the technology can be used routinely to help paralysed people to walk, according to Prof Grégoire Courtine, who led the team that developed the technology at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL).
"This is not a cure for spinal cord injury. But it is a critical step to improve people's quality of life. We are going to empower people. We are going to give them the ability to stand, to take some steps. It is not enough, but it is a significant improvement."
A cure would require regeneration of the spinal cord, possibly with stem cell therapies, which are still at a very early stage of research. Prof Courtine believes that his implant technology could be used in conjunction with nerve regeneration treatments once they are ready."

I applaud his efforts, but the media really should temper it's headlines, I mean, I googled "Device helps paralyzed man to walk" and there was 5.5 million hits - but I don't know anyone who has and I'm on all the Gimp Channels.

- Garro.

[steve garro]

On stem cells..........we have a very long way to go:

“You can imagine if you had this type of injury you’d want to research it and see if there was anything out there that could potentially help you,” Hache said. “Even if wasn’t mainstream medicine.”

Instead of relief, the man experienced additional pain and never gained extra use of his arms or legs. Twelve years later, he was referred to Hache and her colleagues after he noticed decreasing function in his arms and bladder over the previous three or four years.

The team identified a large mass on the upper part of his spine. When they analyzed samples taken from the mass, they matched the cells in the samples to the type of cells that had been transplanted into his spinal cord: cells from the olfactory mucosa — the mucous membrane that lines the nasal cavities.

Hache and her colleagues surgically removed part of the man’s tumor but could not remove it entirely without risking further injury. While the tumor isn’t considered cancerous, the team is using radiation to help slow its regrowth.


https://www.statnews.com/2019/07/11/...-cell-therapy/

A lot of people went for this place's promises in the SCI community with similar results.


- Garro.

[steve garro]

As an aside, I searched Craig's to see if there was any mention of this.
Nothing.

If you want to help cutting edge rehab and research, consider donating to Craig's Spinal Cord Research and rehab center in Colorado - they are doing their absolute best to get people back to a rewarding life at the time of their worst.

https://craighospital.org

I thank you in advance.
- Garro.