Worth looking into? TOOLING-> Mini Mill drill lathe central machinery multi precision

Hello!

I was hoping to get some thoughts on this mini milling/lathe machine.

As a rookie builder (7 frames...) hand filing has been fine but I am really interested in purchasing some machining tools.

Anyone use one of these mini machines for mitering tubes? Good-bad-ugly?

The lathe seems like it would be a nice size for small parts...which is what I would need.

It is posted on Ebay (currently around $600).

Thanks in advance!

Here is the description: (specs)

I have for auction this hardly used central machinery mini mill lathe . I purchased it from a recent estate auction. It is just as you see it. It is in great working order. The Main flaw is the Gear housing cover is cracked. (see pictures 3 & 4). When you tighten the housing nut to keep the gear housing cover closed you almost don't realize there is a crack . (see picture #4). Other than this, damage, there is nothing else damaged. The mill works and the lathe works fine both in forwards and reverse. . Switching from lathe to mill is very easy. (see picture s (9 & 10). the knurled ring on the main gear shaft is how this change from lathe to mill is achieved, and it is easy. By grabbing the knurled ring and pushing it towards the headstock and it locks into place. To change back is just as easy. Pull the ring back. The chuck in the mill and the chuck on the lathe, are in fine condition and show literally no evidence of wear. the tray , at the bottom is in fine used shape. and is clean. The lathe has the capacity to cut threads. The lathe/mill is 19 1/2'' tall. the lenght of the tray is 18 1/4'' long. The only wear issue is the belt from the motor to the lathe is in need of being replaced. .It has deteriorated before my eyes, I think the owner put oil on it. the other belt on the lathe is fine. and the belt on the mill drill is fine as well. Please see pictures for condition. ask questions I know there is something I may of forgotten to mention. Buyer pays shipping and insurance UPS. thanks for looking

Model # 39743

Motor 115 volts, 60 HZ single phase

3500RPM 2.5 Amp load

MT #1 spindle taper

spindle speed drill/mill 500 rpm to 2500 rpm

Lathe 560 rpm to 2500 rpm

Travis
Attachment 49955
Attachment 49957

It saddens me to think something of value might have been scrapped to make that.

I won't be as blunt as Jonathan, but given the budget niche that Central Machinery products serve, I think you would end up frustrated with the limitations and quality of that particular machine. You would be better off looking for an older small South Bend for not much more money.

Yeah, that was blunt, and harsh. Before I ever built a frame I bought a little Chinese mini lathe for some other hobbyist metal working projects. It's long sold. I'm not sure i can think of anything I'd use that lathe mill combo for to build a frame.

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Originally Posted by illcomm33

As a rookie builder (7 frames...) hand filing has been fine but I am really interested in purchasing some machining tools.

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Respectfully - why atmo?
Develop some tactile sense and intuition from working with hand tools, over and over - and over again.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

It saddens me to think something of value might have been scrapped to make that.

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I don't think this is overly harsh. I have often felt like renting a front end loader and a dump truck after shopping at Harbor Freight. The whole store would be better off at a metal recyclers. I have heard some peole call their tools parts kits, but their machine tools are really garbage and not worth working over to make them work. Some other companies sell similar machines that might actually do something, but they also charge for the fit and finish improvements.

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

Respectfully - why atmo?
Develop some tactile sense and intuition from working with hand tools, over and over - and over again.

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This is a completely fair and appreciated question. My honest answer would be, based on my inconsistency and lack of speed and confidence with the files, I like the idea of perfect miters right up front. There is the honest answer! I will definitely take your guidance and continue to learn/practice/develop the tactile sense as I know I have seen improvement since day 1.

Thank you everyone for the honest, possibly harsh :), feedback on the machine. I had a feeling the Harbor Freight brand might be questionable but didn't have any backup which is why I had to ask the best!

Travis,
I have a Smithy Combo lathe/mill at work that never gets used. I would steer clear from combo machines to begin with. As far as HF machine tools, if you've ever been in the store and looked/touched them, they are pretty poorly built. Tons of back lash, sloppy tolerances and super flexy in all the places where no flex is desired.

If you are looking to go the machine mitering route. Start trolling craigslist for a horizontal mill, lathe or milling machine that is built rigidly enough to handle the kind of loads associated with mitering tubes. You'd be surprised the deals that can be found if you are patient and troll craigslist often. I've also watched some good deals on local pickup on ebay (Southbend Heavy 10 perfect condition for $710)

Some brands to look for Atlas or older Craftsman, Southbend (be careful, I've seen a lot with way/bed wear) , Logan, Sheldon, Kearney & Trecker, Barker

Hope this helps if you decide to go this route.

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Originally Posted by illcomm33

This is a completely fair and appreciated question. My honest answer would be, based on my inconsistency and lack of speed and confidence with the files, I like the idea of perfect miters right up front. There is the honest answer! I will definitely take your guidance and continue to learn/practice/develop the tactile sense as I know I have seen improvement since day 1.

Thank you everyone for the honest, possibly harsh :), feedback on the machine. I had a feeling the Harbor Freight brand might be questionable but didn't have any backup which is why I had to ask the best!

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Have you used templates? That's what I use. I can bang out a tight miter in minutes. In fact, I can do a front triangle faster than I could when having to set up the mill (That I used to have, but sold for lack of use) for each cut. For example:

(Note: I do not have anything against machine tools or using them. This method just works better for me personally. Plus there's a bonus: the cost is almost nothing and it takes up no space)

Note the center lines on the templates....makes it easy to keep the miters in phase
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-F...0/DSCN2626.JPG

Rough cuts with a cut off wheel on an angle grinder
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-v...0/DSCN2627.JPG

Rough miters on the bench grinder (this one is likely not OSHA approved...wear proper safety equipment!)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-n...0/DSCN2628.JPG

Final quick touch up with a file
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-g...0/DSCN2629.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-B...0/DSCN8318.JPG

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Originally Posted by Dave Anderson

Rough miters on the bench grinder (this one is likely not OSHA approved...wear proper safety equipment!)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-n...0/DSCN2628.JPG

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Dave, I'm doing everything exactly like this now except for this step. Do you dress the wheel like that or does it just wear that way from grinding tubes? I'd like kind of like to add that step because the file on the cutoff wheel edges kind of sucks--not bad, but this step would save a minute or two per miter I'd think.

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Originally Posted by PCW

Dave, I'm doing everything exactly like this now except for this step. Do you dress the wheel like that or does it just wear that way from grinding tubes? I'd like kind of like to add that step because the file on the cutoff wheel edges kind of sucks--not bad, but this step would save a minute or two per miter I'd think.

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Its an fine grit wheel that I dressed so that it had a rounded profile before I mitered the first tube. The grinder does 90% of the mitering. The photo below is what they look like right after the grinder step. You can take them down to the edges of the templates in a hurry. You don't want to overheat the steel though. The key is to keep rotating the tube. I sometimes also flip it end for end as I am grinding to let one end cool, etc. If the paper starts to turn brown from the heat you need to back off, etc.

Dave

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e...0/DSCN8519.JPG

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Originally Posted by illcomm33

My honest answer would be, based on my inconsistency and lack of speed and confidence with the files

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I would say there is only one real solution to this problem: Get in the shop and file file file some metal!

The learning curve is super steep down this end of the timeline, I learn bucket loads every day and muscle memory can only be taught by doing. keep persevering!

[QUOTE=Dave Anderson;466270]Have you used templates? That's what I use. I can bang out a tight miter in minutes. In fact, I can do a front triangle faster than I could when having to set up the mill (That I used to have, but sold for lack of use) for each cut. For example:

I am sorry Dave, only my opinion but at your stage (being a pro) that is ridiculous. If you want to use minimal tooling one can use two of the Paragon machine blocks, a bevel protractor and the right sized files and I will be done before you even print and cut those templates out. The blocks lock down on either side phase your miter and the bevel protractor (about $30 bucks) will be just as accurate while saving some trees. As far as machines are concerned, I am a machine guy. With a dedicated mill and a good setup you can punch out a miter in approximately 30 seconds. I rather spend my time filling a lug nicely or working on some other detail than something I know how to do in my sleep.

[QUOTE=dbohemian;466317]

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Originally Posted by Dave Anderson

Have you used templates? That's what I use. I can bang out a tight miter in minutes. In fact, I can do a front triangle faster than I could when having to set up the mill (That I used to have, but sold for lack of use) for each cut. For example:

I am sorry Dave, only my opinion but at your stage (being a pro) that is ridiculous. If you want to use minimal tooling one can use two of the Paragon machine blocks, a bevel protractor and the right sized files and I will be done before you even print and cut those templates out. The blocks lock down on either side phase your miter and the bevel protractor (about $30 bucks) will be just as accurate while saving some trees. As far as machines are concerned, I am a machine guy. With a dedicated mill and a good setup you can punch out a miter in approximately 30 seconds. I rather spend my time filling a lug nicely or working on some other detail than something I know how to do in my sleep.

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Dave,

Never one to sit back and just tell folks about how you do stuff without attacking others are you? I would make a few counter points, but since you are always right, I don't see the point. You use your tubing blocks and bevel protractor and I'll do it my way.

Sincerely,

Dave

[QUOTE=Dave Anderson;466327]

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Originally Posted by dbohemian

Dave,

Never one to sit back and just tell folks about how you do stuff without attacking others are you? I would make a few counter points, but since you are always right, I don't see the point. You use your tubing blocks and bevel protractor and I'll do it my way.

Sincerely,

Dave

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I am sorry if you felt I was attacking you. I have an opinion, I am not always right. If you would like me to document with pictures how it could be done better and easier for you, I will. I think we should all be open for some constructive criticism without getting hurt. I could say things more smoother tact if you like but we are all adults here eh? Make your counter points, I am interested in hearing them. Maybe another thread would be better.

Travis,

Congrats on your continued development in frame building, it's nice to see that you have enjoyed the process thus far and are looking toward the future.

Based on your anticipated needs, the mini mill/lathe combo you are looking at would be an excellent tool for developing frustration and dissapointment...not much else.

Here's my perspective. It is not necessary to have heavy machinery to build a simple bicycle frame. If your goal is a single frame at a time, custom designed for it's intended user and defined purpose, your money and time would be better spent as noted by the respondants above. Richard and Dave are two fine examples of folks who operate as professionals that fabricate their style of bicycle with minimal tools and loads of muscle experience. This maximizes their time and ultimately, their money. Low capital investment in machines and tooling allow them to pay themselves a living wage, actually surviving long term in this business.

Machinery becomes necessary when your desire moves beyond simply shaping a bicycle frame, one at a time. Machines allow two distinct advantages; the ability to miter multiple tubes with fantastic speed, accuracy, and repeatability for production runs, and allowing for the creation of fixtures, tooling, and the ability to fabricate your own unique products (bb's, dropouts, derailleur mounts, etc..) that solve either design or function issues, extending your ability as a builder to create custom products that go beyond just geometry. The trade off is that to do so means a substantial investment in not only money, but of time. Careful planning of time allocation and customer billing is required to insure that this business model not only pays for it's self, but pays you.

So, it comes down to what do you want? Will this continue to be a hobby or a career path?

If choosing this as a career, do you have the machining foundation and knowledge of fundamentals to put your purchases to use immediately, offsetting the cost with profitable fabrication?

If you choose to move forward with a machine purchase, take some time to come to Nahbs, talk to builders who utilize such equipment and learn the various methods they are employed. Then, research what type of tool (vertical mill, horizontal mills, lathes, etc...) will best fit your desired process, if a local resource is available for parts/service support, and then set your target and spend your hard saved cash on a tool that will serve you for your career.

Best wishes,

rody

Thank you Rody for bringing this back on track when I took it off course. Much better written and said than myself.

What?
You guys don't use lazer beams from your eyes to cope tubes?
Amateurs.
I use lazers . Yep I used a z in lazers. as in that works best for me , like as in I think Dave knows whats up for him, and David uses what works best for him.
Personally I use a Bridgeport, and let it cut slow and then do something else. It's all about efficiency and what works for you. I can get a lot of shit done when the mill is just turning away, and I am doing something else .
But, lazers.

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Originally Posted by Rody

Richard and Dave are two fine examples of folks who operate as professionals that fabricate their style of bicycle with minimal tools and loads of muscle experience.

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Thanks - and to reiterate, we each had the machinery and subsequently jettisoned it atmo. I don't know or care enough to have the discussion from an engineering perspective but I will add that I think framebuilding, ensuring tubes feel and fit right, and knowing when to leave well enough alone OR go forward for more - all of these are very, very tactile tasks. If you are making a lot of frames, especially a lot of the same frame and in the same size, eventually you may concede to power. Or, if you simply like power, you may concede sooner. But I don't think your frames can get better unless you fully understand the material and how it works together. The assembly, what with different metals, different diameters and gauges, and infinite versions of interference fits all beg for a touch. Back to the original issue, mitering by hand enables the operator to develop a touch dot period. I know not everyone agrees and I accept that. But when I chime in and reply on threads like these, my motivation is to help someone become a better framebuilder and one who can have a chance at a career. If I were to be more agreeable when some folks on the left hand side of the evolutionary time-line want to know where to buy a granite table, or some of these power tools being cited in the last week or two, I'd be a hypocrite to sit on my hands. My inner e-RICHIE tells me that they wanna say they build frames far more than hey wanna be a framebuilder with a steady clientele and income.

You don't have to wanna spend a lifetime mitering by hand, or eschewing power tools and dial indicators (and the like...) but if you bypass part of the essentials and learning curve, you won't be in the game for too long atmo.

Anyway, maybe I am in a bad mood, or uncharacteristically confrontational. But I know what I know, and share it. No charge for this.

Dave,
Are you resting the tool against anything when you push it against the wheel or is it just floating?
-Todd.

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Originally Posted by ToddFarr

Dave,
Are you resting the tool against anything when you push it against the wheel or is it just floating?
-Todd.

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Hi Todd,

Just free handing it. The photo is deceiving in that my hands are generally closer to the wheel when not taking a photo, etc. The wheel cuts through the thin wall tubing easily and so there isn't much back pressure. I work mostly with stainless tubes and there's a little more pressure with that, but still not bad, especially since mitering 953 tubes with only a file is a no go from my perspective.

Dave

I don't have a dog in this fight, but is there not a third path?

Attachment 50043

Commonly used by the people who build stainless exhaust systems. Adjustable for tube diameter and angle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by illcomm33

Hello!

Anyone use one of these mini machines for mitering tubes? Good-bad-ugly?

Travis
Attachment 49955
Attachment 49957

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I have one of those. I got it directly from the Chinese maker about 15 years ago while living in Hong Kong. It is basically useless for frame building. Nothing but the BB shell will fit in it.

What it works well for is small precision parts. You need to calibrate the bed if you work piece catches while turning otherwise you get runout. It will also cut threads pretty well if you have the gear set.

In Europe it is impossible to get tooth belts because the stock belts have an odd pitch. I made new tooth wheels so metric standard drive belts will fit.

This one seems to not have a motor speed control. My version has an electronic speed control.

Here's me milling square holes:
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1204/6...46ba8629_z.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark Kelly

I don't have a dog in this fight, but is there not a third path?

Attachment 50043

Commonly used by the people who build stainless exhaust systems. Adjustable for tube diameter and angle.

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I have one of those, but I haven't used it for frame tubing yet. I worry the v clamp will dent the thin wall tubing. I thought of making a hardwood or aluminum inset to prevent this but I have been working on much more important things (non functioning heating system in my home) rather than making bicycles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark Kelly

Attachment 50043

Commonly used by the people who build stainless exhaust systems. Adjustable for tube diameter and angle.

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Got a link for where to purchase said item?

https://jointjigger.websitesource.ne...x.php?cPath=21

I have the purple one.

I've tried a few mitering processes over the years and come back to hand jobs each time. The light weight bench top lathe with the milling vice (Atlas 6") worked about as well as the Joing Jigger did. Both had a lot of slop, didn't hold the tube securely and the resulting angle that was cut drifted from the intended. Both were tried with added tube clamping with not better results. With the common hole saws' tooth count (6-10 TPI) the teeth can snag and catch on the thin wall tube. I had best results with running the hole saw at a significantly higher speed, still the miter was not fit up ready. For a roughing out these methods are fine enough but, and I'm not very fast, I can rough out a miter in a few minutes with a hack saw and a bench grinder. I would not reccomend a Joint Jigger without reservations. Andy.

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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart

I would not reccomend a Joint Jigger without reservations. Andy.

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My experiences with them were less than stellar as well. For a long time I hand mitered. I even have a few frames up in the rafters that I cannot believe I actually hand mitered (full aero time trial stuff). I tried the jig a notcher, the drill press, a bridgport that I had set up for everything and it did nothing well. I even made a abrasive mitering tool that actually worked pretty well on main triangle tubing but not seat stays and the like (that is something I still want to re-design someday).

For me, if one is going to make the leap into machine mitering it has to be all or nothing in order to give the speed, accuracy and repeatability necessary to make financial and time saving sense. Now I have a dedicated Hardinge horizontal mill that is never used for anything other than main tube mitering along with an older style Anvil fixture and it really works wonderfully. I am in the process of setting up a Nichols mill to do this same thing and the Hardinge will be for seat/chainstays. Just an offhand note, sometimes you can find a mill for a fabulous price. They are out there. My Nichols is in really great shape and I paid 300 dollars for it, although that is probably the best deal I ever got on something it still goes to show they are available.

This subject thread has taken some interesting turns and I'd like to be one that encourages rather than discourages - for the young and impressionable new builder seeking advice - learning how to use mills and lathes. It is a great way to help understand how metal parts are made and go together. One of the first things I did when I got back from my apprenticeship in England was to take some machine shop courses. I would never ever want to undo that learning. It is a skill set that makes me a more complete builder. Certainly these tools aren't the first things a builder should get (although a case could be made that it is better to start out making fixtures than buying ones) but having and using them are an advantage. The kind of steel custom bike most likely to be made in today's market is some kind of utilitarian bicycle with many accessories. Making stems, racks and kickstand plates are part of the skill set one needs to have when building something besides a racing style of bike (and to compete with other builders making similar utilitarian bicycles). Using only a hacksaw and hand drill isn't the most efficient or effective way to get some jobs done.

I've had a number of people apprentice with me over the years. One of the first things I do to establish foundation knowledge is to teach them how to use a Bridgeport mill and South Bend lathe. It isn't just learning how to calculate cutter surface speed for a particular metal, its about problem solving. It is the ability to figure out the sequence to do something in a logical way. This kind of training is how to think to see the big overall picture so one can be a manager knowing how things should be done and not just be the grunt on the floor doing the same thing over and over again. In other words learning how to use machine tools teaches one how to think logically. We can all use more of that.

I'm not saying hand mitering doesn't make sense for some people, is just shouldn't be seen as an advantage for everyone. It isn't a superior way, it is just another way if one eventually gets good at it. There are advantages to using my Bridgeport to miter tubes. For one thing I'm going to be spot on accurate in every detail, the miter is going to be in the center of the tube at the correct angle at the right diameter. The other end of the top tube is going to be exactly at the right length, in phase with the first miter as well as be in the center at the right angle with the right diameter of scollop. I like that. I can show a novice how to do it and in less than a half hour so they too can be getting perfect miters. Instead of doing 5000 practice miters to get it right (that is an exaggeration to make a point), they can be filing lugs or dropout connections or practice brazing to get the hang of how to use their hands. I might add not all machine mitering practices are the same. There are big variations and some can be faster and more accurate than others.

Separate from using heavy machines for bicycle mitering, I really want a milling machine and lathe for other purposes. Threading, splining, redrilling rotor bolt patterns etc would be the uses I would have for them. Also, when you consider things like carpal tunnel syndrome, which I have and already had two surgeries for, reducing the stress on the wrists is a good thing. If I had the machinery, I could weld the same day as I mitre, which I cannot do now as my hands are too shaky and numb after a day on the tools. Its a good thing I have no desire to build things for a living, but just as a hobby. Making my own tooling is something that really interests me as well.

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Originally Posted by Willie1

I have and already had two surgeries for, reducing the stress on the wrists is a good thing.

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This is a good point. Luckily it seems that many people can do repetitive, manual tasks for life and not have a single issue while others are greatly affected by use/overuse issues. Some things may be hard for a framebuilder to keep up for 20-30-40 years without pain. I know when I sand or polish a lot my hands are really sore and I have looked for ways to reduce the effort while keeping the quality up. Pain and preventing further injuries may be justification enough to use a tool to help.

Okay.
I too do not really have anything at stake in this thread, but , as experience has taught me this:
dont buy that desktop shit. it's shit. It just is. It seems it is only made to fail.
Like winter riding, there are really only two schools that work in the coping, mitering, notching world :
get a mill. A real mill. A Bridgeport or similar. Get the ANVIL set up. That is one hell of a way to cut tubes. This is one way of doing it, and it requires money and some machining experience. Those skills are always transferable down the line. This may be "cost prohibitive " to some, but, well it takes money to make it efficient. These can also help if you do develop pain in the hands, arthritis , what have you.
Method 2:
get some blocks, a vise and some files.I did this method for years.It works, and is building a skill set that is essential in frame building. It also comes in handy in other areas of life and work.
I do believe that everyone wanting to build frames should do this for a year. It's the "wax on wax off " frame builder skill building time.
Seriously, please don't buy stuff like that, it will only give you problems done the line, and , if you solely rely on machines to do your work, then your skills will ebb and fade.
Keep it real, and long live the file!!

Another eight and we'll have a minyan atmo.

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Originally Posted by liberacefanboy

<cut> I do believe that everyone wanting to build frames should do this for a year. It's the "wax on wax off " frame builder skill building time.

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AS long as the year means working daily towards an end...

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

Another eight and we'll have a minyan atmo.


AS long as the year means working daily towards an end...

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Yep. I dont send people out into the shop to JUST FILE. There has to be a goal to every exorcize, or, well its just not worth it. Giving someone a coupla tubes and a file is not enough anymore. Proper use of the file must first be taught, then when the understanding of USING the toll one can truly understand its use.
Understanding the use brings you closer to the end. Thats how I see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by liberacefanboy

Yep. I dont send people out into the shop to JUST FILE. There has to be a goal to every exorcize, or, well its just not worth it. Giving someone a coupla tubes and a file is not enough anymore. Proper use of the file must first be taught, then when the understanding of USING the toll one can truly understand its use.
Understanding the use brings you closer to the end. Thats how I see it.

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Well Jack do you wanna learn to build a frame OR do you wanna learn how to build frames atmo?
Richard Sachs: Sustaining As A Process | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES

I have to agree with the old skool here to some extent and this also goes to some degree in another direction altogether

GET READY FOR A RAMBLE

A cheap chinky chonk machine ? theres an entire team of hobbyists on the web who turn them into great little machines

Over here in the UK myford lathes were regarded as the defacto standard for hobbyist engineering types In er proper engineering these folks lust after harrison bridgeport colchester etc etc ,the demise of lots of these company's saw these things go up in price and "like any old iron is somewhat revered" theres still a snobbish attitude towards old machinery being better than the taiwanese shit.

Amazing things are still done on these knackered machines but recentley these old school engineering types who are for a lot of the part apprentice trained (journeyman types) and what you might consider have gained considerable industry experience are turning to china town machines

their myfords are knackered worn out ,kaput...restoration projects in the making but heres the thing even on an old worn out machine a skilled turner will produce an absolutely bang on piece of work

Now they turn to the unworn unspeakable dreaded chinese mini lathe ,however in the same way they can get an old worn out machine to produce the part they can do the bang tidy work also on these things too? WHAT GIVES its an argument thats been done over and over on the machinist forums

I read people worried about their accuracy of surface tables etc on here and if you ever get hold of a book called the foundations of accuracy its an interesting read ,and will put all your worries to bed in terms of how accurate things need to be, it wont make you a machinist but might make you think outside the norm

you can have a fancy tube laser worth half a million quid sat there ready to cut the tube in a little under 2 seconds if you get the skill and experience down you can mitre that tube before windows has had chance to start up to program the profile


my point Experience and practicality (as doug mentioned above) counts a whole load more than the tools in the box

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Originally Posted by Mike Mcdermid

A cheap chinky chonk machine ?

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Nice.

All I really have to add is that as a finished product, a straight bicycle frame doesn't give a hoot about the path you took from A (raw tube) to B (mitered tube). As long as it's a clean miter and everything is in phase, the frame will be fine. You should play around with as many different ways to get from A to B as you can and figure out one that works well for you.

If you're interested in developing better file skills - the bikeCAD templates that dave anderson referenced are a really great way to get there. Likewise, you really don't need to buy a full size 2-tonne vertical mill to make a bicycle frame. A decent mill-drill with some tube blocks and a tilt-vise or rotary table will get you there just fine. I'm pretty sure many of the west coast mtb guys (and garro too) use this set up precisely because it's economical, effective, and doesn't require a large footprint in the shop. If you have the money, inclination, and garage/shop space for a huge machine then go for it; buy a nice one, it'll hold its value, you'll probably learn how to do a bunch of stuff on it that is way more useful than making bikes.

EDIT - actually, come to think of it I think garro/hunter/sadoff/etc use a shaft vise and rotary table combo.

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Originally Posted by Mike Mcdermid

A cheap chinky chonk machine ?

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Can a moderator erase the inherent racism here?

Before this thread veers off topic....

Keep in mind that just getting a machine is only solving half the problem: you still need to hold the tube. This means you'll either need to buy some form of mitering system (very expensive, and too big for such a small lathe) or make something (still expensive, plus a bucketload of time)

When shopping for my lathe I kept hearing "you'll spend at least the same amount again on tooling" and it's totally true - make sure you factor this into your tool-buying.