glue and tubulars

[Mr.President]

I am not asking how to glue them, as I have already done so (the belgian/Zank/etc methods) only on Alu rims/surface

What I need to know is there any differences between alu rims and carbon rims when using this method?

I have searched and some think you should sand the rim (gluing surface) and some swear against it.

discuss.

It is not any different in general terms. It's my experience that using Mastic one gives great results. Both carbon and aluminum rims can have release agent / grease on them left over from the mfg. You need to clean that up with cotton rags and a clean solvent such as goof off.

[zank]

cleanliness is godliness. Not sure if there are any other conisderations to be made. I really can't comment past that since I don't have any carbon wheels. But I think using Mastik One is the best place to start.

Have fun on the bling wheels though!

[Too Tall]

I've had best results with Mastik One for both aluminum and carbon. For both materials as Mike says CLEAN rims is the way to go. Use a clean solvent such as Goof Off to remove any mfg. residues. Use multiple coats of very thinly applied glue and you will be in good shape.

[fishtaco]

I've had best results with Mastik One for both aluminum and carbon. For both materials as Mike says CLEAN rims is the way to go. Use a clean solvent such as Goof Off to remove any mfg. residues. Use multiple coats of very thinly applied glue and you will be in good shape.

I thought the reason why you sand is to remove that slick mfg. residue, at least for carbon rims. if you do a decent sanding, why would you need goof off? +1 on the Mastik 1.

slight drift question for TT -- how many rims do you usually get out of a tube of Mastik 1 ? (trying to make sure my definition of "thinly applied" is same as yours, thanks)

by the way: before anyone recommends the can of Mastik 1 -- I've done that. But if you don't seal it real tight it hardens up and doesn't seem so cost effective any more!

[lex]

Cleaning with a solvent has always worked for me (20+yrs). No sanding.
There are a few traditionalist woodworkers out there that don't use biscuits or dowels to join table top planks together. They use an old fashion super sharp hand planer to make the joining surface as smooth as possible and just glue them together and they hold up forever.
Lex-

[coylifut]

I've come to the conclusion that the Belgian method is a complete misnomer perpetrated by the very nice and otherwise well informed folks at cyclocrossworld.com. At CX worlds in Italy, I did not see one tire glued up using tape/glue.

Day one, I walked around the paddock area at CX worlds and watched (and talked to) the Fidea wrenches gluing tubulars. They used mastik as a series of base layers on rim and tire and then layed down a bead with an upholstry adhesive as the final touch just before mounting the tire. I asked directly "Fastak?" No was the answer. They can't get it any more. They use the Fastak substitute to create a gooey, more stretchy bond atop the mastik. I suspect they do it because mastik drys really hard and when it gets loose, it tends to unzip from the rim.

Back to carbon. I clean the rim with acetone and then a very light scrubbing with fine sandpaper.

[twowheels]

I thought the reason why you sand is to remove that slick mfg. residue, at least for carbon rims. if you do a decent sanding, why would you need goof off? +1 on the Mastik 1.

slight drift question for TT -- how many rims do you usually get out of a tube of Mastik 1 ? (trying to make sure my definition of "thinly applied" is same as yours, thanks)

by the way: before anyone recommends the can of Mastik 1 -- I've done that. But if you don't seal it real tight it hardens up and doesn't seem so cost effective any more!

syrface prep is a judgment call, especially with carbon. you won't do any harm lightly sanding carbon with a fine grain paper. i have done so in the past with a new rim. you do it to slightly roughen the epoxy layer and to remove any release agent or other residue. then, you need to wipe the surface with a clean cotton cloth to remove particulate. i then usually wipe again with some acetone. goof off seems to have a constituent that can take several hours to fully gas off. also, goof off is nasty, toxic stuff. it seems worse than acetone. thus, i prefer acetone.

i usually buy cans as i tend to glue tires several at a time. as i recall, i can't get two tires mounted out of two tubes of mastik, at least with a griffo or conti road tire because the tires drink up lots of glue.

the amount of glue to use is also a judgment call but i typically with new rims and tires put two coats each and then a wet layer just before mounting the tire.

last tip, the amount of time needed between glue coats is also a judgment call and depends a lot upon the temperature. if its hot, you don't need as much time between coats. i prefer mounting when its warm for another reason--i like to open up all the doors in the garage and blow some air through with a fan to minimize the amount of vapors i breathe.

[EnginCycles]

Back to carbon. I clean the rim with acetone and then a very light scrubbing with fine sandpaper.

this is backwards thinking. you remove the dirt and grease but then add the finest dust one can make? you need to have the degreaser (acetone or what not) be the last step. keep cleaning until the towel shows no signs of black dust. this will take WAY longer than you think. that dust is very tenacious and will keep making the rag black.

Cheers,
Drew

[coylifut]

this is backwards thinking. you remove the dirt and grease but then add the finest dust one can make? you need to have the degreaser (acetone or what not) be the last step. keep cleaning until the towel shows no signs of black dust. this will take WAY longer than you think. that dust is very tenacious and will keep making the rag black.

Cheers,
Drew

yeah, sand then clean. I suffered a head injury on Saturday. Just reverse everything I say for the next week or so. My two daughters figured it out right away. My wife usually catches on just when it's time to switch back.

[Mud]

No sanding!

[acotts]

How long does it take for you guys to clean a dirty old-bastard-glued rim.

I remember doing it once, using goof off, as I heard that acetone was bad for carbon rims, and it took hours to get it clean.

ANy tips or tricks for prepping the carbon wheel?

[Mr.President]

yeah what cleaner for a carbon rim? The ones I got are used and need to have glue and maybe tape removed.

[Too Tall]

No sanding!

The new(er) Zipp wheels I've worked on are coming from the factory squeaky clean and no need to remove mfg. release agent. Also, they have prepared the surface properly to receive glue no need to sand. This is not always the case so use your judgement.

I can prepare 2 new wheelsets from one tube of Mastik...that consists of 3 thin coats...very thin.

The method Mike Z recommends for cross tyres will survive all season long in mud and wet. I tried this last yr. and am convinced, he knows his stuff. Dealing with a race team is a diff. beast and might be different. If I were a pro wrench I would NOT have enough time to do this and my fingers would be broken bloody nubs from trying to remove the tyres.

[zank]

I like the tape because it is almost fool-proof. But as Coy said, it is certainly a mis-nomer. At worlds on Friday morning, I actually witnessed a couple of Belgian mechanics gluing tires and sending riders (U-23s if I remember correctly) out right after. WTF? I hope all they were doing was rolling around the Team Box area to set the tire. But what do I know?

[11.4]

I glued up about 130 tires on carbon rims this season and have yet to see a rim that doesn't benefit from careful prep. The manufacturers advise against it because they don't want someone going after the tire bed with a disc grinder, but they pretty much all have either mold release compounds or aerosolized lubricants floating around that contaminate the surfaces.

The point of sanding is NOT to roughen up the surface -- the glues operate by electrostatic bonding and work fine on a perfectly glossy smooth surface as long as the surface is immaculately clean. It takes very tiny amounts of contaminants to mess up adhesion, and then no surface roughness will help.

The point of sanding is simply to remove the very fine top layer of resin and with it, any persistent contaminants that don't necessarily clean off with solvents (which includes many of the silicone-based mold release compounds used by rim manufacturers). Finer grit the better -- I use 600 grit silicon carbide. Then I scrub the surface studiously with acetone or naphtha (acetone works a bit better and naphtha is a bit healthier, so just use gloves and work outdoors when using acetone). I do NOT recommend Goof-off as a final cleaning compound because it's a mix of various petroleum distillates, some of which do a fine job of contaminating the gluing surface again. Goof-off works well to remove adhesive but then you have to use acetone or naphtha to remove the Goof-off contaminants.

[hupomone]

I can prepare 2 new wheelsets from one tube of Mastik...that consists of 3 thin coats...very thin.

TT, two sets of rims or two sets rims and tires?

When I glued the edge wheels ergott just sent me I cleaned them with acetone and gave them a light scrub with a scotch bright pad then acetone until my white rags stayed white. As for glue I used one tube per tire/rim. Three coats on the tire, two on the rim and one more on the rim to mount. I put on as thin a coat as I could (about 12 inches at a time on the base tape and 1/3 of the rim at a time), the glue would flash just as I got it spread evenly. I thought I would never be able to straighten the tire out it stuck so hard.

G

[GrantM]

The point of sanding is NOT to roughen up the surface -- the glues operate by electrostatic bonding and work fine on a perfectly glossy smooth surface as long as the surface is immaculately clean.

Velonews printed the mother of all gluing reviews a year or two back.
I recall they tested all the glues, on carbon and alu rims, and the sanding
made no difference to the amount of pull it took to dislodge the tire.


-g

[Shinomaster]

How long does a glue job last? How does one know if the bond is still good?

[twowheels]

How long does a glue job last? How does one know if the bond is still good?

good job (like you got) usually lasts a couple years.

let the air out, grab the tire and try to pull it off. or, next time i see you with the wheels (sunday?) i'll take a look at them for you.

i'm sure they are fine but it is good to check.

[Too Tall]

TT, two sets of rims or two sets rims and tires?

When I glued the edge wheels ergott just sent me I cleaned them with acetone and gave them a light scrub with a scotch bright pad then acetone until my white rags stayed white. As for glue I used one tube per tire/rim. Three coats on the tire, two on the rim and one more on the rim to mount. I put on as thin a coat as I could (about 12 inches at a time on the base tape and 1/3 of the rim at a time), the glue would flash just as I got it spread evenly. I thought I would never be able to straighten the tire out it stuck so hard.

G

hupomone - Just rims.

Thanks for the correction 11.4. I've used Goof Off for yrs. and when I don't have that handy I use acetone. Yah learn something everyday.