Training for Ultra, thoughts and advice

[dhoff]

So this is my third year of riding in Ultra Races, these are the only events I have ever ridden and I am clear that I am still a novice. Each season I have improved my performance by simple metrics but am still doing what I do, slowly. Basically I train the same way I ride in events, long and slow and usually ride 3 days/week, plus one day of yoga and some resistance. I have some questions:
-Should I be inserting fast rides in my schedule, taking some short days to ride fast?
-What about intervals?
-Is it better to ride longer on three days a week, or to ride daily shorter rides?

My focus is for the moment on the shorter Ultras: Double Centuries, 12hour and 24 hour races. But I want to be riding races in the 400-600 mile range in 2013.

I am asking some specific questions, but would welcome any advice.

Thanks

[Too Tall]

Doug,
Two things I learned when training for the stage race version of the Southern Transcontinental. First, there is no substitute for specificity. Once I finally wrapped my thick skull around the fact that my ability to knock out 300 and 400 k training days without needing long recovery periods was non-negotiable I started to get better at riding long. Secondly, to ride fast Ultra Distance you have got to have power to turn those cranks baby :) That means intervals, hill sprints, weights and learning to time trial. That's my short answer for now. Rock on.

[Tom]

I'm a novice, too, and without results so take this for what it is worth.

Working around work schedule and available time my plan is to ride before work 100-120 minutes at least four times a week. About once or twice a week I make it hurt, the other ones are usually just floaters to enjoy myself. Most weekends I only have time for about 7-9 hours total and mostly I ride both days. Those are generally used to get used to a faster cruising pace. It seems to work out that once a month or so I go 100+. I'm aiming for half of the mid-September event up by Lake Placid and it looks like I'll have a big total of three rides more than 170 miles and one back to back 100 weekend before then.

I equate this to trying to run a marathon on three long runs of 18 miles and weekly totals averaging about 35 miles. Minimal to the extreme. I intended to do better but May and the first part of June were not what I hoped for, they were basically winter training level. Fortunately I'm really not competing. I'm using the sport as an excuse to ride as much as I want and a little more.

[roseyscot]

I'm not convinced that more targeted workouts (intervals, hill repeats, etc) are better than just logging the mile at this stage. If your focus is endurance, you need those miles.

Example: I rode 100 miles a day for 32 days in a row while crossing the country. The distance itself became trivial after 10 or so days of it. I couldn't have outsprinted a turtle but my daily routine and recovery were easy to manage. Fast forward, this year I rode 300 miles in one sitting with some friends. They needed to stop, stretch, take shoes off, etc. I didn't get a lot of training for this but I still know how to pace and hold together for that kind of distance. As you ride more and more for longer periods, you'll get comfortable with what you need to do to survive for 24 hours straight. Once you are surviving, then go back and work on increasing speed or hill climbing ability with more focused workouts.

[burgess1108]

I'm not convinced that more targeted workouts (intervals, hill repeats, etc) are better than just logging the mile at this stage. If your focus is endurance, you need those miles.

Example: I rode 100 miles a day for 32 days in a row while crossing the country. The distance itself became trivial after 10 or so days of it. I couldn't have outsprinted a turtle but my daily routine and recovery were easy to manage. Fast forward, this year I rode 300 miles in one sitting with some friends. They needed to stop, stretch, take shoes off, etc. I didn't get a lot of training for this but I still know how to pace and hold together for that kind of distance. As you ride more and more for longer periods, you'll get comfortable with what you need to do to survive for 24 hours straight. Once you are surviving, then go back and work on increasing speed or hill climbing ability with more focused workouts.

With due respect, I think Hoff's question is how to best increase both endurance and speed simultaneously. I'd refer back to TT's comment. Yes, train with specificity, but part of the equation is mixing in other practices to increase strength so that you can not only ride long, but do the entire distance at a faster clip. When I trained for Leadville, weekends were long days in the saddle racking up lots of miles and elevation at steady tempo. Weekday training was shorter, but very high intensity. It's quality, not just quantity.

[dhoff]

Man, I love this place. Though the individuals may disagree, from the lot of you I get exactly what I need. Thank you.

It is hard for me to book those weekends of long rides, the world seems to demand allot, but I have done what I have done.
So here we go; the season has gone from one event/month to two or three and the time is now to really dig in. The next is the Nightmare Double Century which claims to be the toughest double in the east, then D2R2 the following weekend, and something else the week after. I expect to do all of these slowly, but to do them as training rides should work.

So my only remaining question is what should I be doing during the week if my schedule includes events every one to two weeks?

[pjc59]

Before getting too deep into the nuances of speedwork, strength and endurance work, I'd suggest sitting down and thinking what you goals are. That will drive any training regime you put together. What are you hoping to achieve? Where are you now? You need to be realistic in the goals you set and consider the other demands in your life.

As you build a program understand the basic training principles, such as, overload, adaptation, progression, specificity. This list isn't exhaustive but covers some key principles. Overlaod means you need to stress the system for adaptation to occur. Progression means a gradual and systematic stressing of the system. Adaptation is when changes occur as a result of progressive overload. Specificity refers to the idea that training needs to be specific to the event you are training for.

As everyone is different, a program needs to be tailored for the individual. To do that, you have to know what your goals are so back to point #1.

[steamer]

The best article I have read on the subject: Training For Ultracycling Events : UltraRaceNews

Not a complete training plan by any means, but explains some important concepts about specificity (in partciular, to what extent this well honored concept does NOT apply to ultras).

[Tom]

That's an interesting article. I've seen two well reasoned plans - this one and one that says you do gigantic rides regularly and pretty much what I would term nothing in between (1-3 hour easy efforts). What is significant to me is that both of them stress that you need to recover from the workload or your abilities decline.

Personally, a slight modification of the gigantic ride with recovery plan appeals, largely because I haven't ridden a ton of big rides so learning what happens when I'm out there for 12 or 16 hours just fooling around is going to give me a lot more confidence that I can handle it when the clock is running. The key is to eat and sleep enough the rest of the time.

[Too Tall]

That's an interesting article. I've seen two well reasoned plans - this one and one that says you do gigantic rides regularly and pretty much what I would term nothing in between (1-3 hour easy efforts). What is significant to me is that both of them stress that you need to recover from the workload or your abilities decline.

Personally, a slight modification of the gigantic ride with recovery plan appeals, largely because I haven't ridden a ton of big rides so learning what happens when I'm out there for 12 or 16 hours just fooling around is going to give me a lot more confidence that I can handle it when the clock is running. The key is to eat and sleep enough the rest of the time.

Tom, there is a art and dark science to this and that's where ultra-coaches and past experience come to play. I've got two comments on the above. First, the style or "how" you achieve fitness for ultras has alot to do with your ability to execute training. If you are time co-opted than I'm probably going to focus more on speed / strength and less on huge miles with one caveat you must have proven abilities for the distances you plan to race. Secondly, if you have the time and access to hours and hours for riding your bike than I heartily endorse this. Some of the best and most successful ultra riders I know practically live on their bikes and those are rare individuals.

[steamer]

That's an interesting article. I've seen two well reasoned plans - this one and one that says you do gigantic rides regularly and pretty much what I would term nothing in between (1-3 hour easy efforts). What is significant to me is that both of them stress that you need to recover from the workload or your abilities decline.

Personally, a slight modification of the gigantic ride with recovery plan appeals, largely because I haven't ridden a ton of big rides so learning what happens when I'm out there for 12 or 16 hours just fooling around is going to give me a lot more confidence that I can handle it when the clock is running. The key is to eat and sleep enough the rest of the time.

I don't think a plan that totally emphasizes quality over quantity or a plan that totally emphasizes quantity over quality is really ideal. No extreme tilted in one way or another is going to address the complete picture.

Elite endurance athletes spend lots and losts of time in the endurance zone (Z2), and this develops certain adaptations.

However those same athletes spend some very important time going like hell. This develops different and complementary adaptations.

So their training is pretty polar. But, importantly, both poles are represented.

This paper is very good at discussing this: http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.pdf

You'll read that most amateur athletes make the mistake of spending most of their time in the funny middle ground of threshold riding. This wears you down and feeds a psychological need to 'train hard' but doesn't allow for full development as an athlete. I am guilty of this behavior. Been trying to change all that.

[steamer]

I should add that, for myself, I don't have the time (or the desire, really) to train like an elite athlete. If I were to regularly spend more than 10 hours a week onthe bike, I would be looking for a copy of the prenup.

So, to the extent that I want to participate (and participate respectably) in ultras, what is the time crunched cyclist to do?

I emphasize quality over quantity, because it's really the only choice I have (in practical terms). But that's not to say it's ideal training.

But I don't think it's a terrible approach either.

[dhoff]

This paper is very good at discussing this: http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.pdf

Thank you for posting this article. I find it very valuable but will read it another time or two before commenting.

[steamer]

Thank you for posting this article. I find it very valuable but will read it another time or two before commenting.

It's a long paper. One could almost just read the part in the box on the first page, and the conclusions section on pages 49 and 50, and get most of the important points.

I have read that paper several times. It sat on my nightstand for a few months (literally) and I digested a piece of it at a time.

[the bottle ride]

Just joining the party to hear more- I plan on doing 2 100 MTB rides next year so this is helpful.

[Too Tall]

It's a long paper. One could almost just read the part in the box on the first page, and the conclusions section on pages 49 and 50, and get most of the important points.

I have read that paper several times. It sat on my nightstand for a few months (literally) and I digested a piece of it at a time.

It is a good paper. There is absolutely nothing new to reveal however, it does a terrific job observing best practices.

[steamer]

It is a good paper. There is absolutely nothing new to reveal however, it does a terrific job observing best practices.

Yeah, the premise of the whole thing is that, through the years, coaches and athletes are actually been pretty innovative and have tried lots of stuff, and that the current best practices really do represent some of the best ways to approach endurance sports, at least for those athletes who have unlimited time to train (i.e. they are pros or semi-pros, at least).

I do think that there are some things to be learned in the future, through additional research, however those things are likely to be icing on the cake. Current best practices do already get you the cake. I doubt any new, revolutionary training technique is out there, waiting to be discovered, that will blow everything we understand up to this point out of the water.

All that said, what I struggle with is how do I take these hard learned lessons that the pros use, and apply them to my own schedule. I rarely have time to train more than 6 or 7 hours a week, yet I have been able to do some ultra events respectably. If I use the "80-20" rule for intensity that the pros use, I suspect I would be in poorer shape and not do as well in my target events.

The closer you are to training at pro-like durations, the more sense the techniques and approaches described in this paper make.