signing waivers and releases atmo -

[Saab2000]

Question - Was the rider killed by a bad luck hit to the head in a slow corner? Or totally overcooking a corner and flew off a ledge?

Anyone know?

I only ask because reading the Speedbloggen words it sounds like it really was just bad luck and frankly, anyone can have bad luck. Yeah, we create our own luck, etc., but the accident that ultimately mandated helmets in the pro peloton was a relatively low-speed accident with Andrej Kivilev who hit his head hard but it was not a spectacular, high speed crash. Just a tragic low-speed one and it sounds as if the recent accident was more of the same - a careful, experienced rider who, for whatever reason, had a split second of bad luck and instead of scrapes and bruises it was, sadly, fatal.

There's no editorial in my question nor is it a question out of morbid curiosity. But sometimes 'shit happens' even if we're careful.

[JimFrain]

Roberts Brother has posted an extremely moving letter that addresses many of the thoughts expressed in this post and reminds us to enjoy the times that we can ride with our friends and family.

Rapha Ride victim identified; his brother writes to comfort cycling community « BikingInLA

Peace!
-Jim

[e-RICHIE]

Another +1 here. I think he hit the mark with both posts.

okay i have to say this -
the drama here is because we have one person's opinion about what happened based on what - seeing a bicycle on the ground?
i am trying to follow this closely and all i get from reading the internet threads is that it was a real, bonafide accident, not random
act of riding outside one's ability. read the post from slate that i linked to. owing to what has presented so far, i don't know how the
death can have anything to do with the blog's OP to which the note above adds this chestnut:

Seducing people out of their experience level (with the best of intentions) happens.

i wasn't there. and i dunno if seeing the bicycle on the ground could allow me to know what happened.

[jbartmc]

Waivers are mostly useless. Also, cycling is largely an assume the risk activity. I am a lawyer who represents injured people, and cyclists are my favorite clients. Usually, they are hit by empty-headed but good-hearted motorists. Most of us are very careful and have survived an encounter with a car. I think riders like us are much more careful on the road than when we drive. With this death, terribly sad as it is, a waiver would not hold water, nor should it. The law does not condone advance immunity, and cyclists assume the risk of crashing every time we clip in our pedals. It is a tragedy without a tort remedy from what I have read. When I barrel down a descent as fast as I can, I truly take my welfare in my own hands. I know it and avoid large group rides so that I remain responsible for my well-being.

[SPOKE]

I find this thread/discussion extremely relevant due to a situation playing out in lawyer's offices here in NC.
I think it happened about a year ago now, on a long standing Sunday recovery ride, there was a crash that involved 3 folks. One ended up with a busted shoulder and taken to the ER. Another one, a very well respected & experienced racer, ended up going to the hospital later for a neck injury. Both these parties brought suit against the the third person!
This was nothing more than a simple accident caused when someone near the front of the group slowed unexpectedly causing the person (the person being sued) to overlap wheels and crashing. The folks bring suit crashed as a result of hitting the downed rider/bike.
As a result of this an attempt was made to get those that participate in this ride and others to sign a waver in order to participate.
Of the 40+ people that participate in this ride on a regular basis only about a dozen were willing to sign a waver....
The persons that brought suit have been asked to never show up again.

Cheers.....SPOKE

[GSmith]

My own personal experience, for what it's worth, is that Rapha does a very good job of organizing the Gentlemen's Races. I've participated in a few, most recently the Northeast version this past May.

We went over the course description at the morning pre-race briefing, and were specifically warned about certain areas, in particular, one descent about 25 miles in (they were also noted on the queue sheets that were provided in advance). As we hit the descent and spooled up to 40+, I called out a reminder to everyone that this was the spot that we had been warned about. 30 seconds later I was on the ground. I broke my hand in five places, fractured my hip, and hit my head harder than I realized.

Who's fault it was never entered my mind, since I was already too busy blaming myself. I was aware enough of the hazard to call it out and I still crashed. I was following the wheel in front of me too closely, ended up too high on the line because of it, and failed to correct properly when my tire lost grip in some wet shadows and blew. My fault. My risk. Not a minute need be wasted on blame.

When you're above the tarmac on tiny contact patches at speed, it only takes a momentary lapse for it to end badly. I don't believe that it is a matter of if, only a matter of when. Tragically, sometimes it's worse than broken bones and torn flesh.

I ride my bike for the freedom and, yes, the thrill of the assumed risk. Its exhilarating to put it out there on two little contact patches, powered only by yourself, gravity, and the all too rare tailwind. Selfishly, and I say selfishly because I am a parent, it is one of the few things that I can do that makes me feel like a kid. Those moments are life itself, even though they are achieved only by putting it out there.

I don't want the world to become so risk averse that we have to regulate every activity. Why does tragedy have to be someone's fault? Why can't it just be a tragedy?

[echelon_john]

Perfectly phrased. My thought exactly.

. Why does tragedy have to be someone's fault? Why can't it just be a tragedy?

[Saab2000]

........it is one of the few things that I can do that makes me feel like a kid.........

.........Why does tragedy have to be someone's fault? Why can't it just be a tragedy?.........

Agreed on both points. I don't think anyone was being negligent and when we take to public roads we always assume risk. It's just the way it is. I don't think anyone here is actually blaming anyone but everyone sees how it really could have been any of us. I still got on my bike for a quick 45 minutes between rain showers this afternoon. All thought of danger goes out of my head. It's all about risk management and managing the situation. Same as in my job.

There is no risk-free existence.

As to feeling like a kid? Oh yeah!

[Too Tall]

Good words G.Smith.
The world is not a nice place except it is always a very nice place when we are bar to bar riding bicycles.
I like Mikeys premise that he would not want to trust anyone on his wheel unless they break bread. That's something I'll try to put into practice.

[jitahs]

but first -
this is an interesting explanation courtesy of slate olsen, a rapha cat:
Death. « Speedbloggen

Just got in after 4 hrs. on the bike, 4 hrs. of practice. These threads made me hyper-conscious of what I was doing, good stuff.

Since I started the cut and paste deal I'll do it again.
I don't have anything more to add except Slate's explanation doesn't jibe with this guy's:


beeatnik
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 95
I was there, I will try to exercise tact.
Large group rides or experience level
Heard this comment just before the ride, "there are too many new bikes here." The guy who made the comment was in full Rapha and peeled off 5 min early. He was afraid of crashing his murdered-out Canyon. Then, in the first mile, my friend's buddy, riding a new Time, kept making comments about his bike being twitchy and the amount of riders. These were only 2 riders out of 50 plus but I imagine there were a few other guys out there just as anxious. I guess this speaks to the various experience levels on the ride.

The route
A female rider crashed on the first, less technical descent.

The rider
I rode behind him on the final climb for about a minute or two. I'm no cycling coach but I concluded he had years of experience (but according to his brother, he did not) since he was one of the stronger climbers and had great technique. He was also one of the oldest if not the oldest rider in the group. It's not difficult to sense motivation and drive in a rider's style.

The rider's group
He was following the line of a much more experienced (30 years) UCI licensed rider.

The descent
Right from the start, all I heard was squealing. The squealing of brakes in front of me. Then, I overcooked a corner and a very aggressive rider behind me screamed at me. The crash occurred a few seconds later.

The organization of the ride
A beautiful morning. A few nice speeches. The usual, "this is not a race but a social ride." And that was the nature of the ride, except, I'm sure I wasn't the only rider who didn't expect a "technical" descent. I was out there on 5 hours of sleep with new wheels and a not dialed-in cockpit. In any case, no warnings were given about the descent, even a perfunctory one.

The demographics of the ride
No one over 60 and 5 women. Also the slowest riders were the youngest, the USC Cycling kids. So, out of 7 "outliers" there were 2 crashes on descents. Not wheels touching or other lapses of etiquette.

[jitahs]

Why does tragedy have to be someone's fault? Why can't it just be a tragedy?

All this chatter is about upping one's personal game and has nothing to do with blame, as I see it.

I don't want to see people die, I just want them to ride their bikes better because that's a worthwhile pursuit.

[jitahs]

"We all know that descending is a skill that takes years and years of practice to become good at. Many cyclists never become comfortable going downhill, even after decades of practice. We also know that at age 51, Robert had only been learning to descend for three years at the most. Like so many other skills, the reactions and coordination required to descend are harder to learn the older you get. Even in the best case scenario, we have a talented novice making a run down a steep and twisty course.

According to his brother Carl, Robert was an enthusiastic yet cautious rider. Putting all these anecdotes together, it seems to me that he was a solid rider but perhaps much less than an expert descender. The Speedbloggen post refers to a photo of Robert that indicates, simply from the setup of his frame, that the chance is quite low that he was an expert or even a very skilled downhiller. I’ve not seen this photo, but if Robert was indeed riding a spaced, high handlebar, he was not optimally set up for a tricky descent. The weight would have been on his rear wheel. His center of gravity would have been high. A photo from his web site and a WAG from one of the people on the ride put him as perhaps six feet tall and about 170 pounds."

Who killed Robert Hyndman? We did. « Cycling in the South Bay

[jscottyk]

Another +1 here. I think he hit the mark with both posts.

okay i have to say this -
the drama here is because we have one person's opinion about what happened based on what - seeing a bicycle on the ground?
i am trying to follow this closely and all i get from reading the internet threads is that it was a real, bonafide accident, not random
act of riding outside one's ability. read the post from slate that i linked to. owing to what has presented so far, i don't know how the
death can have anything to do with the blog's OP to which the note above adds this chestnut:

Seducing people out of their experience level (with the best of intentions) happens.

i wasn't there. and i dunno if seeing the bicycle on the ground could allow me to know what happened.

I'm not certain where we are not seeing eye-to-eye but will assume that is the case since I was quoted.

I was not there nor did I see the bicycle on the ground. That said, I do not have to be to agree with the sentiment I take away from Noel's (aka Swoop) posts. I don't read them as a criticism of the specific cyclist or even the specific event. Rather, a call to be vigilant about our skills, bike setup and question the growing phenomenon of 'pirate' rides. I also read a sincere sadness about the loss and honest condolensces for everyone involved. First and foremost the family of the rider.

I'll close with this from the Death. << Speedbloggen post, "treat every descent the same way a surfer treats a big wave… with the respect and attention it deserves."

[jscottyk]

All this chatter is about upping one's personal game and has nothing to do with blame, as I see it.

I don't want to see people die, I just want them to ride their bikes better because that's a worthwhile pursuit.

Another +1.

[BBB]

There's perhaps two topics to this thread.

Regarding waivers.

Here's the wording I've seen for two different rides by two different organisers.

32. The Rider acknowledges and agrees that participation in the Ride is inherently dangerous and that he/she participates in the Ride at his/her own risk.
33. In consideration of ***** permitting the Rider to enter and participate in the Ride, the Rider hereby releases and indemnifies *****, the sponsors of the Ride and any of their respective representatives from and against all and any claims, suits, demands, liabilities, loss and damage (including indirect and consequential loss), costs, expenses and, interest, whether pursuant to common law or statute, that the Rider may suffer or incur arising from or connected with the Rider’s participation in the Ride including as a result of the negligence, breach of duty, breach of care or other fault or responsibility of *****, the sponsors of the Ride and any of their respective representatives.

The first part is common sense. Riding is inherently dangerous and throw in cars to the mix then it is even worse. But, we accept this as ultimately the reward is great. The alternative is sitting timidly indoors. I have no problem with expecting people to give this type of acknowledgment.
The second part is silly. I very much doubt it would be enforced. An organiser should get insurance and should pass the cost of that insurance through via the entry fee. But to say to a rider, you release us and indemnify us in the event we (including our sponsors) get sued is just plain gutless. I understand if the rider rides over and above their ability and crashes. That's not the fault of the organiser. But, if the organiser fucks up and injury results then they should take the lumps (under the cover of insurance of course).

The second part seems to be regarding experience.

How do you actually get the experience? You don't suddenly wake up one day and be able to climb and decend like Alberto Contador. It just doesn't happen. You do have to start somewhere as each and every one of us on this forum started their journey as a cyclist from a position of relative inexperience. Swoop's post raises some good points regarding mass start events, but he also comes across as an elitist wanker. I'm quite sure on his first bike ride he wasn't riding a bike like he does now or have the same skill level he now has (or purports to have via the various grainy self-portraits). Let's mentor rather than comment on the number of spacers someone has. Let's put qualifications on rides of certain lengths or difficulties (or usually both) to enable people to work their way up. Let's break bread, to use the vernacular, with a broad cross-section instead of a becoming a closed shop.

Finally, let's put the whole thing in context - someone has died. This could happen to anyone of us at any time we through a leg over the top tube. We are all someone's one son, daughter, mother, father, brother, sister, friend etc etc. The why doesn't really matter.

[roseyscot]

<snip>

The second part seems to be regarding experience.

How do you actually get the experience? You don't suddenly wake up one day and be able to climb and decend like Alberto Contador. It just doesn't happen. You do have to start somewhere as each and every one of us on this forum started their journey as a cyclist from a position of relative inexperience. Swoop's post raises some good points regarding mass start events, but he also comes across as an elitist wanker. I'm quite sure on his first bike ride he wasn't riding a bike like he does now or have the same skill level he now has (or purports to have via the various grainy self-portraits). Let's mentor rather than comment on the number of spacers someone has. Let's put qualifications on rides of certain lengths or difficulties (or usually both) to enable people to work their way up. Let's break bread, to use the vernacular, with a broad cross-section instead of a becoming a closed shop.

Finally, let's put the whole thing in context - someone has died. This could happen to anyone of us at any time we through a leg over the top tube. We are all someone's one son, daughter, mother, father, brother, sister, friend etc etc. The why doesn't really matter.

Yes, Swoop/Noel had always come across as an elitist wanker ATMA. It is easy, and all too common, for any of us to critique and ultimately criticize other cyclists. What is not nearly common enough is for most of us to approach new cyclists or inexperienced cyclists with an open mind and an interest in offering advice, guidance, or even a well intentioned warning. So many of you mention this is the type of scenario that causes you to avoid group rides, or to only ride with those who you share your same decades of experience. That's selfish, and for everything cycling gives you, you should be giving back. I'm not saying you need to tun every FRED out there into a cat 2 superstar, but you owe it to yourself to help raise the bar in general for the tens of thousands of newbies.

No doubt there will be those who are offended or disinterested in your help, but if offered from a genuine position, you just might be surprised how willing others will be to listen. And when the sport continues to grow, and our towns/cities start imposing bike friendly laws and our frame builder friends are over flowing with orders, you can take some joy in knowing you've helped grow the sport in a positive way instead of sitting back and snickering like Swoop at the guy with the extended headtube and $400 kit.

[ides1056]

The very notion of having to sign a waiver for a group ride, a fun ride, a let's go out and have a blast ride, is antithetical to me. That would be a ride I would avoid like the plague. I have ridden with groups of fifty to seventy, though this was years ago in SF when the Berkeley Wheelmen used to show up on a Saturday or Sunday, and a huge group would head up to Point Reyes in series of stages that all ended up where excellent food and drink was served. We would race and practice double pace lines along the way. But nobody was racing, as such, just mixing it up.
But a waiver for a group ride?
Okay, if it's a race, that makes perfect sense. I guess that anyone commuting out of NYC should have to sign a waiver... When I see someone with a bumper sticker that reads, " I'm not speeding, I'm qualifying," I give them 200 feet. Same thing in any group of cyclists.

[jscottyk]

...sitting back and snickering like Swoop at the guy with the extended headtube and $400 kit.

I'm curious, what part of either of Noel's post on this matter do you read as 'snickering'?

[Tom]

A couple of personal opinions, for what they're worth. About the only group rides I do are hosted by the local shop, it requires you belong to the 'team' which amounts to paying a nominal fee which lets you participate in all their stuff for a year. I sign the waiver without a second thought... but it wouldn't matter, I'm not suing anybody. I respect the shop manager too much, given how much they're doing to maintain a riding culture in a town which otherwise would have none. They bust ass. They also do a very good job of letting everyone know what is involved, where the sketchy parts are and how we're supposed to behave on the road. But then again, anybody that goes to the good time and trouble to put together something so I can go fart around with a bunch of other like minded fools has my respect and I'll never screw them over for that, so it goes beyond just the one individual. I guess the deal is that the waiver makes no difference to me, it's just a piece of paper. If I'm participating it's on me anything that happens.

I am reluctant to post out on their email list that I'm heading out for 150 or so some Saturday and anybody that wants to join up can come along because you start hosting people you don't know and it may not come out good. I don't need to put an attorney on retainer just because I want some company on a long ride. Probably a stupidly far fetched opinion but when you read that the guy that hit Garro wound up suing it just tells you that the reality can be pretty unreal.

[the bottle ride]

I'm curious, what part of either of Noel's post on this matter do you read as 'snickering'?

The last paragragh.

I think it is the timing of the post:
I get the whole punk rock-call it as it is thing, but being tactful and respectful is the right move, other wise you come off more GG Allin than Joe Strummer. And like GG, I think Noels post is covered in crap.

Let the corpse cool before you knock on the widows door.