QBP's in-house brands

[vertical_doug]

Well, when you make a new design in China, they make 3 prototypes. One for you, one for your competitor and one for themselves.

[Dorman]

Anyone else ever notice that a high end carbon fiber canoe paddle retails for about 1/4 of what a carbon fiber rim does? Eh?

[ryanc]

Or these guys. Nud Bikes.

Upfront about their manufacturing too.

Hi, it's Ryan with nud - appreciate the mention! We haven't launched yet, so was curious about the bump in traffic.

That is some of the strangest sizing I've ever seen.

Pretty sure that 403 chainstays are below spec for SRAM and Shimano.

TT length increments are odd. 72* HT on a 61cm frame? 18cm HT on a 61cm frame?

Thanks for the feedback. You're right, SRAM does call for a 405mm minimum chainstay, but it's not unheard of to go below that for a race oriented bike - off the top of my head, I think BMC and Kuota have frames that are shorter than that. The same goes for the short head tubes. For comparison, the Foundry Ratchet has a 172 on their size 60.

I agree the exponential rather than linear increase of the eTT length is kind of unusual, but it'll just be an issue of tweaking the stem length. Keeping head tube angle constant across all sizes is not particularly uncommon either, and I don't find 72* too offensive, especially when paired with a fork with a 45mm offset to lower the trail - what would be your preference?

Would appreciate any further feedback you (or anyone else) may have - please feel free to pm me directly!

But to my point, they may look the same, would the Pricepoint carbon frame that looks identical to a specialized carbon frame necessarily be the same frame? Would the factory not do any finish work on the $200 frame, possibly use cheaper/less raw material in the carbon?

I have owned both and can say I see NO DIIFERENCE between the non branded and branded frames.

Thought I'd just comment on the apparent commoditization of carbon frames.

There's a reason why a $400 Chinarello, despite looking like it, is not the same frame as the Dogma, but the Ritte Bosberg is a Pedalforce QS3 with a prettier paint job (and man is it a stunning one).

While it's true that the technology to make carbon frames has become more mature and accessible, there is still a difference in quality between a $350 eBay BIN free shipping special and even a lower end big brand frame. Like with other frame materials, it's easy to make a bike frame, but it's hard to make a good one.

The thing with carbon frames is that what you see is only a small part of what you get. The exterior of a carbon frame is the easiest thing to get right. It's even easier if there's a frame you're trying to copy (say, a squiggly Pinarello) - then it's just a matter of making a negative mold that will spit out a similar shape. It's unlikely that the OEM for Pinarello is going to breach their contract by selling the same frames (from a "closed mold") out the back door - it's not a business model that will ever be as profitable as fulfilling large orders for restablished, prestigious brands. It's been suggested that they're made by workers who sneak back into the factory at midnight, but that's really underestimating the amount of time, machinery, and diverse skillsets needed for the assembly, curing, bonding, alignment, and finishing steps to produce a carbon frame. It's far more likely that a small carbon factory without a legitimate business model had to resort to making counterfeits to survive.

The challenge of a carbon frame is in its design and how that design is executed. The layup schedule is carefully planned to maximize stiffness where it matters (the bottom bracket, for example), and minimize weight where it doesn't, such the mid sections of tubes. There are design decisions to be made on the grade, orientation, and shape of each carbon fiber layer, and the manufacturing process has to result in an optimum resin to fiber ratio - too much resin and the frame is too heavy, too little and you end up with a weak frame (carbon fiber is stiff, and only in one direction - not strong). Often, a brand would design the exterior shape and aesthetics, and outsource the calculation of the layup schedule to the manufacturers.

Figuring all this out is the hard part; this is stuff the lower tier frame manufacturers are unable to do well, but it's all stuff you can't see. Sure, you can weigh the frame, but how do you tell a light and strong frame from a light and weak one, short of expensive destructive testing or cutting it open? Without any sort of presence outside of China, there really isn't any pressure (i.e. legal liability) for the frames to be free from design or manufacturing defects.

The top tier frame OEMs are not the ones selling direct to consumers - some manufactures like Ten Tech (Cervelo, Scott) don't even bother exhibiting at trade shows. The more accessible ones will have open mold frames that require sizeable minimum orders, and that's where most smaller brands without the expertise and capital for composite material R&D will source their frames. If your order is large enough, then you can negotiate exclusivity for that particular frame design.With an even larger budget, you can have a frame designed exclusively for you. If you can't commit to a large minimum order quantity, then you're looking at dealing with lower tier manufacturers or wholesalers.

So a lot of the times people buy frames from direct to consumer manufacturers thinking that they're buying from the same factory that makes the name brands, but it's almost never true (and of course, those manufacturers have no reason to dispel the notion). You get what you pay for, but like with every other product, diminishing returns apply to carbon frames too - I'm just not sure it quite kicks in yet at the $300 mark, although I'd say it ramps up quite rapidly after about $2000.

Anyone else ever notice that a high end carbon fiber canoe paddle retails for about 1/4 of what a carbon fiber rim does? Eh?

A paddle is under much less tension than a rim, doesn't have to be drilled, and is much less likely to injure the operator if it breaks.

[jscottyk]

Hi, it's Ryan with nud - appreciate the mention! We haven't launched yet, so was curious about the bump in traffic.
...

Hi Ryan. Welcome to Velocipede Salon!

Thanks for jumping in and for all the info. This is a lively place so don't be surprised if there are lots of follow up questions.

[jscottyk]

...We haven't launched yet...

Ryan, can you give us a hint about '???' ? What's coming after the Scout?

[KeithNYC]

thank you Ryan!!!

[Lionel]

Good point Ryan!

[marcelia]

Ryan - great post- good.on you to jump in and clarify.

Where is the 650b hardtail, pls?

Regards

[jr59]

Hey Ryan, thanks for your insight!

[ryanc]

Thanks for the welcome, and glad I could shed some light on the topic! I've actually already been lurking a bit - followed a link from somewhere to friday night lights, and couldn't believe how much original content there is (somewhat rare for a bike oriented forum, wouldn't you say?).

As for what's after the Scout, we're playing it by ear. It might not necessarily even be carbon :V No plans for mountain bikes right now though.

Someone asked through the website live chat what the BB drop was - I wasn't around so I wasn't able to answer, sorry! Hope you see this - the BB drop is 72mm for size 46-50 frames, 71 for size 52, and 70 for 54-61.

[GSmith]

Thanks for the welcome, and glad I could shed some light on the topic! I've actually already been lurking a bit - followed a link from somewhere to friday night lights, and couldn't believe how much original content there is (somewhat rare for a bike oriented forum, wouldn't you say?).

As for what's after the Scout, we're playing it by ear. It might not necessarily even be carbon :V No plans for mountain bikes right now though.

Someone asked through the website live chat what the BB drop was - I wasn't around so I wasn't able to answer, sorry! Hope you see this - the BB drop is 72mm for size 46-50 frames, 71 for size 52, and 70 for 54-61.

Ryan,

Congratulations and best of luck to you and NUD. I really respect the transparency with your testing results, and think that you are onto something with your business model.

Gary

[SignatureJustin]

Hi Ryan or other frame builders,

Just a question about chainstay length.

Why make them shorter than component manufacturer spec? It only makes the shifting less than perfect. As the person in the shop working with customers wondering why their drivetrains are noisy, shifting no so ideal and having to explain to them their Cervelo has a chainstay that is shorter than spec. Manufacturers put those dimensions out there to make things work smoothly for the techs and customers.

When bikes were small diameter steel I understood frame builders couldn't get the materials any stiffer so they made stays shorter to give the bike a quicker acceleration. With modern materials and what an be done I don't see why anyone would not be able to make chainstays stiff enough in a 405 length or longer for a more stable better handling bike. The short chainstay seems outdated at this point.

Just looking for some frame builders reasoning about this whole idea.

[Lionel]

Short chainstays are dumb in particular in large sizes.

[Willie1]

I appreciate the posts above. I would like to add, I bought my frames from gotobike, and an ebay seller. I have 2 sets of carbon wheels purchased from ebay. I have not had any failures, an I am a clyde. I rode the carbon wheels in Whistler in the bike park on a 5.5" trail bike. I have my suspicions about the source of the direct sale frames. I wouldn't doubt some are low quality, but that hasn't been my experience. I don't doubt the factories that only sell to manufacturers (if that actually is the case) have high quality. My experience is even the direct sell frames are high quality (at least the 5 I own from three different suppliers.) I suspect there is a need to keep people suspicious about the non branded products. How else does a retailer justify his higher price over a direct sale?

[SignatureJustin]

I appreciate the posts above. I would like to add, I bought my frames from gotobike, and an ebay seller. I have 2 sets of carbon wheels purchased from ebay. I have not had any failures, an I am a clyde. I rode the carbon wheels in Whistler in the bike park on a 5.5" trail bike. I have my suspicions about the source of the direct sale frames. I wouldn't doubt some are low quality, but that hasn't been my experience. I don't doubt the factories that only sell to manufacturers (if that actually is the case) have high quality. My experience is even the direct sell frames are high quality (at least the 5 I own from three different suppliers.) I suspect there is a need to keep people suspicious about the non branded products. How else does a retailer justify his higher price over a direct sale?

Some people still enjoy purchasing a product that comes with service and a company backing it.

There will always be a place for both.

[jr59]

Hi Ryan or other frame builders,

Just a question about chainstay length.

Why make them shorter than component manufacturer spec? It only makes the shifting less than perfect. As the person in the shop working with customers wondering why their drivetrains are noisy, shifting no so ideal and having to explain to them their Cervelo has a chainstay that is shorter than spec. Manufacturers put those dimensions out there to make things work smoothly for the techs and customers.

When bikes were small diameter steel I understood frame builders couldn't get the materials any stiffer so they made stays shorter to give the bike a quicker acceleration. With modern materials and what an be done I don't see why anyone would not be able to make chainstays stiff enough in a 405 length or longer for a more stable better handling bike. The short chainstay seems outdated at this point.

Just looking for some frame builders reasoning about this whole idea.

Outstanding question Justin!

[ryanc]

Ryan,

Congratulations and best of luck to you and NUD. I really respect the transparency with your testing results, and think that you are onto something with your business model.

Gary

Thanks Gary! That means a lot coming from you.

Hi Ryan or other frame builders,

Just a question about chainstay length.

Why make them shorter than component manufacturer spec? It only makes the shifting less than perfect. As the person in the shop working with customers wondering why their drivetrains are noisy, shifting no so ideal and having to explain to them their Cervelo has a chainstay that is shorter than spec. Manufacturers put those dimensions out there to make things work smoothly for the techs and customers.

When bikes were small diameter steel I understood frame builders couldn't get the materials any stiffer so they made stays shorter to give the bike a quicker acceleration. With modern materials and what an be done I don't see why anyone would not be able to make chainstays stiff enough in a 405 length or longer for a more stable better handling bike. The short chainstay seems outdated at this point.

Just looking for some frame builders reasoning about this whole idea.

When the perceived benefit of a bike "feature" is greater than actual, real world benefits, I would say it's fashion more than anything else. If the general perception/attitude towards them shifts to thinking that they're "outdated", then they will slowly be phased out. That said, it's worth noting that we're talking about a deviation of few millimetres from SRAM's recommendation - it's hardly the length of one chainlink. While I don't dispute your experiences, I've personally found no ill effect on noise/shifting performance. I guess I don't feel too strongly about it either way; it's not something that I would base my purchase decision on.

I appreciate the posts above. I would like to add, I bought my frames from gotobike, and an ebay seller. I have 2 sets of carbon wheels purchased from ebay. I have not had any failures, an I am a clyde. I rode the carbon wheels in Whistler in the bike park on a 5.5" trail bike. I have my suspicions about the source of the direct sale frames. I wouldn't doubt some are low quality, but that hasn't been my experience. I don't doubt the factories that only sell to manufacturers (if that actually is the case) have high quality. My experience is even the direct sell frames are high quality (at least the 5 I own from three different suppliers.) I suspect there is a need to keep people suspicious about the non branded products. How else does a retailer justify his higher price over a direct sale?

It's not so much about keeping people suspicious as it is making sure they are better informed. My impression is that a lot of people purchase those frames thinking they're buying from the same place Specialized or Pinarello is, but it's really not true. Now that doesn't mean that the frames are low quality or unsafe, but that you really just don't know, and there's no way to know. Some people are fine with the uncertainty because, whatever, it's a really good deal. For others - like Justin said - they are willing to pay more for the peace of mind, and for branding and design that resonates with them.

[SignatureJustin]

That said, it's worth noting that we're talking about a deviation of few millimetres from SRAM's recommendation - it's hardly the length of one chainlink.

Since it's only a deviation of a few millimeters why not atleast meet their minimum spec?

I'm just curious why you do it and to what benefit? To what benefit do your bikes have by not having optimal shift performance.

It is also Shimano's minimum recommendation and Campy's minimum is 407. These are the minimum recommended number! Not even a recommended number but a minimum chainstay length.

I'm not trying to break balls but I am curious why companies disregard these tolerances that the component manufacturers provide to have the best shifting performance.

[Lionel]

There is this notion that short chainstays will give a faster bike.... Some geometries also have ths same short chainstays from XXS to XXL. These same geometries also have a 43mm raked fork from XXS to XXL. None of it makes any sense but it saves the number of molds you have to build.

[Joachim]

Great. I was really eyeing a Time but those have 402 chainstays and there is nothing I dislike more than non-optimal shifting. Well, there are but those things are at the CDC.