Ouch (Yay, my stem's not too short.)

[winmonster]

I'm looking for a little advice, even if it means go pay so an so some money and have him evaluate you. I want to go to the right so and so if that's the case.

My story: one of the reasons I quit riding/racing was due to knee pain. A doctor (who wasn't familiar with cycling or sports in general) recommended knee surgery. I was 17 and riding about 15-20,000 miles a year (not smart, but that's what they told me to do, so I did it). I stopped riding soon afterwards, but could still run without problems (other than shin splints solved by shoes).

I started riding again last spring (bought an old Colnago that felt "right" compared to what was available in my budget at the local shops). The size was within the range that the shops were putting me on and equivalent to what I rode back in the day. The stem was too short and it had a seatpost without setback. My neck/between the shoulder blades would start hurting shortly into a ride (and saddle sores), but I never experienced the knee pain. Replaced the stem (120 mm up from 90 mm) and played with height. Same result. Replaced the seatpost with one that had setback. That felt better in terms of placement on the bike, but the neck/back pain still persisted (saddle sore much reduced, though). I just converted to a threadless fork and bought a longer stem (130 mm). I left some room to play on the steerer and ended up putting it snug against the headset after starting with a 1 cm spacer above and below. The neck/back pain is gone.

But my right knee is killing me just like it did back in the day. Scale of 1-10, it's a 7 or so. Under the interior top corner of my patella. It hurts on and off the bike. On the bike, it hits hardest at the 3 o'clock position. If I pedal backwards it hits hardest at the 9 o'clock position. I stopped during my commute this afternoon and raised my saddle about 5 mm. It seemed to reduce the pain slightly, but I can't say for sure. It feels like I'm in a similar position as I was when I raced as a kid.

Due to a far away meeting and desire to heal, I'm taking tomorrow off the bike. I've enjoyed getting back on too much to stop riding again. Could this be a classic case of some saddle/bar positioning juju fixed by advise and experimentation? Do I need more help than that and need a fitter (which one?)? I'm screwed because this post is too long and you fell asleep?

Any words appreciated. Let me know if I can provide numbers/pictures that could help. Thanks.

[bellman]

Are your legs the same length? The only time my knee hurts on the bike is when my back is out and sucks one of my legs up.

[Z3c]

Find an experienced fitter in your area..

Scott

[winmonster]

I'm not sure about a leg length discrepancy, but the left knee does not hurt and never has. I'm totally down with paying a fitter if the knee pain will go away, but I don't want to pay some yahoo to do a bad job, so recommendations would be appreciated if that's the route to go.

[nahtnoj]

How close is Vienna to TT's digs?

Measure your legs. A lot can go wrong due to length discrepancies.

[Lionel]

How does one measure the 2 legs, just curious... From what bone to what bone?

[SteveP]

move yr cleats all the way to the rear

[znfdl]

winmonster, you are about a 30 min drive from Too Tall's house. He is on vacation this week, but give him a call....... or atleast send him a PM. If you need his phone number, send me a PM and I can forward to you.....

[Too Tall]

I'll take care of you my friend.
Give me a shout this coming Monday. Come to my house late afternoon and we'll go for a ride with some tools in my pockets.
It's the little things more than likely.

[corko]

I'll take care of you my friend.
Give me a shout this coming Monday. Come to my house late afternoon and we'll go for a ride with some tools in my pockets.
It's the little things more than likely.

TT you da man!

[rec head]

If you are getting 7/10 pain on every ride you really need to see somebody and it sounds like you are lucking out.

[anomaly]

Beyond TT's generous fit advice you should also be stretching which raises the question, are ou stretching?

[corko]

Why should he be stretching?..... humans are built for flight or fight, people never stretched before going into battle or running away. ,,,,,,Seems to be a US obsession (to me)

apologies for threaddrifto but why do you recommend stretching in this case?

[Too Tall]

Why should he be stretching?..... humans are built for flight or fight, people never stretched before going into battle or running away. ,,,,,,Seems to be a US obsession (to me)

apologies for threaddrifto but why do you recommend stretching in this case?

Very light stretching in the direction of injury sometimes helps and that's about all the inter-web advice I can give at this time. Buh Bye.

[winmonster]

Thanks for the advice and offers. I'll try moving my cleats back a bit and stretching my patella/cartilage (I kid, but will try some stretching) in the mean time to see if that helps. I'm not doing any stretching at the moment. I tend to just start out slow and ease into the ride. Thanks for the kindness, TT. I'll take you up on the offer, but feel free to kick me in the butt and send me on my way.

[WadePatton]

I'll take care of you my friend.
Give me a shout this coming Monday. Come to my house late afternoon and we'll go for a ride with some tools in my pockets.
It's the little things more than likely.

this rightcheer whas gonna be my first suggestion. and TT (da man) done already beat me to it.

[WadePatton]

Why should he be stretching?..... humans are built for flight or fight, people never stretched before going into battle or running away. ,,,,,,Seems to be a US obsession (to me)

apologies for threaddrifto but why do you recommend stretching in this case?

hey, it's late enough in the thread for some drifters. i like this line of reasoning. have no answer, but would like to see some by those who have a bit of medico/physio training.

[giordana93]

Why should he be stretching?..... humans are built for flight or fight, people never stretched before going into battle or running away. ,,,,,,Seems to be a US obsession (to me)

apologies for threaddrifto but why do you recommend stretching in this case?

so if we were built for flight or fight, where does sitting on your ass in a relatively fixed position for 2-7 hours fit into the equation? it's not close to either. these types of injury owe to a gazillion cycles of repetitive movement; thrown in with some inflammation, etc., tight muscles can pull things out of alignment (patellar tracking, pelvic symetry etc) . saddle height and handlebar drop depend in part on hamstring flexibility (and psoas and so on). so stretching matters. That said, I don't stretch; and lately I don't even get that many miles in. ergo, my saddle is lower than in my fit and flexible youth and I run a little less drop. ymmv, but when you have tight hammies and drop the saddle to compensate, there is more stress on the patella, esp. if you get fit and tend to be a masher

to the OP: take a trip to see TT and consider yourself lucky to be close to a good set of eyes. don't start effing around with your cleats and stuff--listening to that kind of advice from folks who have not seen you, have no idea about your current set up, it just makes no sense and you will only be adding one more variable to the equation, that you won't have time to assimilate before messing around with all other kinds of factors (seat height, set back, bar position and width, etc.). if you only have some inflammation (and not a more serious injury, which can't be diagnosed over the interweb anywy), stick with the position that is easiest on the knee, take some advil, ice that baby after riding and try to get the inflammation down, and get to a good fitter. your ideal position (which is best seen as the best compromise among power, efficiency, flexibility, and fitness for a given terrain/riding style) may not be achievable until you get the irritation taken care of, which may even mean some time off the bike or in a recovery position.

with all the above said, and again considering that we have not seen you and these are shots in the dark (and that you really need to limit the number of variable you mess with, etc), saddle sores sticks out as weird (seat too high?) is your seat at least level? nose down can put more pressure on the neck, etc. than a forward position; and don't discount something like bar width. I'm old school and think most people have bars too wide. whatever you do, take an accurate measure of everything (I think the Park tool site still has a good "bike measurement" for clients of mechanics pdf somewhere that is a good starting point). sorry, it was my turn to ramble. I'll see if I can find that park link. good luck. and be patient. knees can take forever to heal

[giordana93]

and just to add something TT has talked about before and fits into the whole stretching as therapy drift--I'm pretty sure he is an advocate of myofascial release techniques; won't steal any more of his thunder at this late hour, but it's worth a google or wikipedia for inquiring minds

[winmonster]

Is this where I mention a history of my right knee locking up as a kid riding and racing. I sat (and still sit) Indian-style a lot. My right knee would lock up occasionally (once a week or so) in that position. 10/10 on the pain scale and I could not force straightening of the joint. After much hullabaloo and writhing it would eventually pop back into alignment. Others could hear it very distinctly. The fact that the pain went away after I stopped riding (I could run after healing.) and started shortly after the latest change make me think its a fit issue. Solve one issue, cause another... My saddle is tipped up 1 or 2 degrees, and my bars are maybe a little too wide but nothing way out of spec, I think (c-c measurement is near shoulder to shoulder measurement). Oh well, I'm looking forward to reporting back after riding with TT.