Educate me please

[Cdub]

I have learned a ton from you all over the past year. You all are always talking about custom steel/ carbon etc. The bikes you all post are beautiful by the way.

I attempt to race and have been caught up in the carbon equals better racing. I have a really good frame, but am starting the process of researching my next steed.

Will a cutom steel bike with steel fork actually race as well? ( Help me understand why I should get on a wait list)

I am honestly seeking knowledge from people I view with much respect.

Ergott helped me understand wheels and have enjoyed his custom lacing skills, now want to know more about the frame world.

thanks

[dbohemian]

So the question I always come back to is why would one material be better than another? I make steel bikes, but with that being said most any material can be made into a great bike frame. Of course there are great examples of Al, Steels, Ti, Beryllium, Magnesium and a multitude of composites, including carbons, and heck even bamboo.

For me its much more than the pound difference. Fit is important, design of the frame, weight distribution, alignment, quality of construction. All more important in my book than the material.

As far as steel is concerned, it is an amazing overall material for bike frames. Whether or not it is better? That is subjective but I would say that it can be customized to your riding style and has all the properties that a good frame should have. I sincerely believe that well made, light steel bike frames could still be raced at the very highest levels and pose no disadvantage to those riding them. In fact for the reasons above it may be an advantage.

[ergott]

My take is the you should put together a list of builders that have the same vision for what a bike should be as you. If you want a race bike, talk to builders that are known for building great race bikes. The material is insignificant, but there are highly skilled builders of each. If you want to stay with carbon there are a few names to consider.

The other factor is if you can get a chance to visit said builder. I think most builders like seeing the rider out on the roads to get a real idea of what they need. There are a lot of builders that will ride a couple of hours with you and determine what you bike should be like.

Then you trust them to do the job they do and I bet you will be a real happy guy.

-Eric

[William]

Regardless of what the marketing tries to tell you about how great or how fast frames made of CF, or Ti, or Aluminum, or even steel are....bottom line is, it's the motor that determines that, not the material.

With that being said, you've been given some great advice already.:beerglass:



William

[Bruce K]

There is alkso something to be said for the classic "look" of a steel bike and knowing the effort and artistry that makes it what it is.

I love my road bikes and the way they ride but I am getting a real jones for a lugged steel something for the road.

BK

[swoop]

the frame material doesn't matter.

i've raced aluminum, carbon, ti, carbon ti, aluminum carbon... its all the same if the bike fits and works.


the speedvagen will be raced... if i we're d-1 good and could ride the tour on the bike of my choice i'd choose the vagen. its steel.
its not the materials, its the guy making the bike, the guy riding the bike... and the fit. if you have a guy that speaks steel, he'll make you the best steel race bike ever.... (insert whatever materials you want). the vagen feels like a cutting edge race bike (in marketing speak).

its like comparing supermodels based on hair color.

carbon is a fantastic material. but its no more or less fantastic than any material. its just what the market demands and also lends itself to current production methods as well as boutique methods. its really how folks execute the materials...

it so happens there's a lot of great carbon bikes.. the sacrifice is in finding one that fits and that has a geo that makes sense for how it will be used.

i love steel, aluminum, ti, and ti/carbon too. none is better than the other....

[Too Tall]

Gosh, I'll give you an real life example. I coach a young man who in less than two seasons has moved from cat 5 and about to move to cat 2.....he races a Cannondale System 6 which he loves however every time his is in town the youngster sleeps at our house and races his old heavy steel Battaglan...steel fork too. He talks about that bike like it's the best thing next to sliced bread.

Trust me he's not wrong. That is a race bike and always was, sure it's heavier but the solid handling and reliable cornering inspires him to push it just as hard if not harder than his sexy carbon wonder. He is no dummy and would tell me if the old Battaglan was no good, he can afford now to have another bike...he wants me to change it from 8 to 10 spd. :)

All I'm saying is you must consider that bikes have not advanced in design in any significant way. A stupid light bike gets you nothing compared to a good design and a smart fit. That said, a sexy beast of a bike is a thing to behold admire and enjoy. Don't justify WHY you'd sell your soul for THAT bike just give in!!! This is a lifestyle brother not a living. Bikes are our vehicles for joy, motivation and more. Ahhh, I'm prattling hehehe.

Choose well.

[Shinomaster]

My friend Bob still races on his 1980 steel Pinarello which he used as a young pro on the Denver Spokes. He's raced and sold lots of other inferior bikes including Serottas and Raleighs etc. He wants to be buried with the thing, even though it was re-painted as a white Raleigh.

[Frankwurst]

Swoop knows of what he speaks. It's not rocket science.:beerglass:

[doofus]

there are good steel/Ti/CF/AL bikes and cruddy steel/Ti/CF/AL bikes

we've been through this before

its the geometry and the build quality.

i'd be happy to race my '95 Giordana in a masters or cat 3 crit.

i thought my steel bike from kirkp was a better race rig than the carbon scotts my club team rode, or the AL ridley i had.

a really nice scandium AL in the geo kirkp did up for me would be my ultimate race rig.

its the geo and build quality, not the material

[Too Tall]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSgKSBQI1QE

[Len J]

its like comparing supermodels based on hair color.

....

Quote of the millenium.

Len

[Sasha]

Making the big assumption that it fits and is constructed correctly, a carbon fiber frame will deliver the highest possible stiffness to weight ratio. Correct?

Stiffness and weight are only two indices of a race bike. People might prefer the way a steel bike tracks or the responsive feel of aluminum. Handcrafted offers more inspiration, etc. The advantage of 2 lbs or extra stiffness will make little difference for most people. But on these two pretty crucial factors, carbon seems to be winning.

Don't get me wrong. I ride steel bikes. I love them. I own several of them. Up until last year, I raced on them. I may return to racing on steel soon. They always work(ed) great. I feel like the iconoclast on here lately.

[swoop]

you can make a bike out of steel and get it at 14.9 (the uci legal limit) by using light wheels. aluminum is rad too. so is carbon!
the thing the consumer doesn't realize is a lot of the sub 1000 gram frames we buy.. that the pros ride.. are made stouter for the pros... and are heavier by hundreds and hundreds of grams than what we're buying. they lay them up differently....
i can't name names but i've had the conversations with the folks making the bikes.... its very common.

[hampco]

i get that carbon and aluminum frames are lighter than most steel frames but i'm 15 pounds over my racing weight so it doesn't matter to me. and i like steel for it's sweet ride and sly good looks.

and the stiffer thing? aluminum and carbon feel stiffer - yes indeedy - but i fail to see where that perception makes me go any faster, cause it doesn't.

does it?

[Shinomaster]

It would be cool to race an exact copy of ones self on different bikes (with horse blinders) to see if there was in fact a difference.

[swoop]

here's my rant for the new swoopy frame shapes... what good is a aero frame if the fit isn't dialed and the rider not efficient?

i've never not for one second felt limited or had performance mitigated by the fact that the tube was round. it's getting silly.

[dbohemian]

Making the big assumption that it fits and is constructed correctly, a carbon fiber frame will deliver the highest possible stiffness to weight ratio. Correct?

No, that is not correct. So many variables in composite construction. Many people do not realize the shear amount of choice in the actual composite, resin, design, layup, etc. etc.

It is very possible to have a light carbon frame that is not nearly as stiff as a function of weight as a metal bike. Conversely the opposite could be true. What somebody else said about beefing up pro bikes is also true. Heck they would not ride some of the noodle, sub 1k frames out there.

[maddog17]

i pretty much agree with what everyone else is saying. i'll also add that i'm a steel fan and all the bikes i've had have been steel. it's what i started on and it's what ive grown acustomed too. i've been tempted to go the full carbon route, but have resisted temptation. i'd rather save the cash and use it towards a truely custom bike, one i can design from the ground up and probably lugged because i think that a good lug set can really add to the beauty of a frameset. in the end, what will end up being most important is fit. you can have the most high tech frame but if it dont fit right then it's just gonna hamper you. your ride quality can be tuned by the builder, so no matter what material you use, your ride will be enjoyed. and if that's set right, and you match it with a proper fit, then you'll probably end up saying that it's the best bike on the planet and rave about it to everyone.

[davids]

I'd say that - beyond geo - what matters is that the design take advantage of the material's properties. Aluminum, for example, is softer than steel. Al tubes need to be made in larger diameter (and thicker too, I think) than Fe tubes in order to make them as strong. And it's the diameter that makes them so torsionally stiff.

I'll shut up now about material properties, because I really don't know what I'm talking about. But I hope I'm getting my point across - A good designer knows how to take advantage of the properties of materials being used. A bad designer doesn't.

So you can make a fantastic bike out of many materials. And you can make a shitty bike out of the same materials. Get over the materials thing. They're a means to the end, and that's it. All steel bikes aren't the same. All carbon bikes aren't the same.

Get it?