Cornering Speed

[Sasha]

At what speed can you confidently take a 90 degree corner on flat, high quality, clean pavement with no one else around? Think giant parking lot with cones to mark the corner. This is not a pissing contest. I'm not very confident in this area, so I'm looking for a speed to aspire to. Rather than think, "I'm comin' in too hot, gotta scrub speed" I can think "TT, the Jerk, Flux, or Swoop can take this even faster and so can I"

[Mabouya]

How wide is the road? Can you use both lanes, or just yours?

[GrantM]

Rather than think, "I'm comin' in too hot, gotta scrub speed"

why do you think this?
have you had an bad experience cornering?

I think lots of people think "oh no, slow down", their brain just tells them this,
and it's not based on any physical feedback. Is your bike sliding out from under you?

If you've done any mtb riding, you'll be familiar with the "auto" slow down feature,
as just about everyone instinctively grabs a handful of brakes when going into a corner.
It's just a reflex.

Start by just thinking "no brakes" when you head into the corner, and lay off the levers.
You should be carrying your speed into the corner... in other words, all the slowing down
part is finished BEFORE you start to turn. Do not turn and brake at the same time.

In good conditions, 50+ km/h in corners is no problem.

[Saab2000]

Think you're too fast in the corner? Bend your elbows and lower your shoulders. CG makes a difference.

Oh, BTW, did you glue your tires well enough? This is why we glue.

[handsomerob]

At what speed can you confidently take a 90 degree corner on flat, high quality, clean pavement with no one else around? Think giant parking lot with cones to mark the corner. This is not a pissing contest. I'm not very confident in this area, so I'm looking for a speed to aspire to. Rather than think, "I'm comin' in too hot, gotta scrub speed" I can think "TT, the Jerk, Flux, or Swoop can take this even faster and so can I"

I would imagine it is like auto racing and the better question is what line is best to take and where is the correct apex. Then it is just a matter of pushing your speed incrementally each time.

You can take a turn at a higher mph than someone else, but if it puts you off line and unable to get back on the gas (er... pedals) then who was really faster?

[flick]

But I think that the racing line may differ, mid apex constant radius due to the need to maintain momentum vs a late apex for dealing with acceleration out of the turn Chrits?

[Too Tall]

Imagine me sitting cross legged listening to Flux say that. Nice :)

To answer your question...it does not matter. What matters is form. I use a very simple drill to teach time trial turn arounds. The skill translates to crit corners and eventually to the b-to the wall all out cornering Flux is talking about. Once you realize that bikes have an amazing amt. of grip on most surfaces and that your tyres are not going to vaporize magically for no reason...than you'll have confidence. With confidence comes speed. The MOMENT you tighten up or think you can not go fast is when the wheels come off, your back comes up and the corner speed goes to he!! or worse.

The parking lot drill goes like this...brake and pedal constantly into the corner (don't coast...pedal and brake at same time) using a good line (outside inside) hands in the drops...press the inside bar down lightly...as you apex gun it in or out of the saddle depending on circumstances. I use soccer cones..the shorties that are soft and if you run them over no big deal. This is a time trial drill to prove to folks that entering a corner in a controlled manner hitting the apex smooth and fast and nailing the exit is WAY faster than charging the corner too fast, braking super hard than regathering yourself to accelerate. If you want to do this drill with no cones than use a curb and apex twords the curb and that natural barrier will force you to not go too far outside your line...but don't blame me if you end up in the grass

[FMS rider]

I have been doing a lot of parking lot cornering drills over the past couple of weeks and have made some progress. However, it would be very helpful for me to have some idea of what to shoot for, and I would like to ask if anyone has links to video from such drills by masters of the art (semi-masters even)?

My primary goal is to improve my square-corner avoidance maneuver for riding in town (have had some bad experiences including hospital-time), but I assume that turning drills also will make high speed descents safer --those are my greatest source of pleasure from cycling and I want to hone my technique before upcoming rides in the Alps.

Thanks in advance,
Lew

[Too Tall]

I have been doing a lot of parking lot cornering drills over the past couple of weeks and have made some progress. However, it would be very helpful for me to have some idea of what to shoot for, and I would like to ask if anyone has links to video from such drills by masters of the art (semi-masters even)?

My primary goal is to improve my square-corner avoidance maneuver for riding in town (have had some bad experiences including hospital-time), but I assume that turning drills also will make high speed descents safer --those are my greatest source of pleasure from cycling and I want to hone my technique before upcoming rides in the Alps.

Thanks in advance,
Lew

You sit very nicely on the bike boss. First things first, find a good comfortable position that allows full use (brakes too) of the drops.

[Fixed]

good question. under normal, dry conditions. clean, smooth pavement. michelin grips or pro3's. 2-3 lane road entry exit on a flat road. **think full sprint from 200 meters out, after coming out of a corner after a 500m all out sprint , without braking on that 2nd corner using outside-apex-outside. I did this at the TOC Prologue. *Jonas said I scared the shit out of him when I took that 2nd corner. Used a Grip up front. This was on the TT bike with dual tri-spokes mind you and there was an ever so slight banking if you hit the line just right (2nd corner is the one I am referring to).

There can be so many factors to this. basically you can go a lot faster than you think you can. like descending, cornering at speed takes nerve, concentration, skill and foresight.

**this is the best personal, real-world example i can give
*director driving car behind me.

bro he said it
" There can be so many factors to this. basically you can go a lot faster than you think you can. like descending, cornering at speed takes nerve, concentration, skill and foresight. "
where can you get things like that this without paying a coach ?.. .....here
thanks
cheers
butch

[WadePatton]

It helps if you stay off the white line at the exit. Well the damp grass clippings covered white line. Well, a car messed up my entry-that's how I wound up on the line and then the tarmac.

Doing it over again, I would have aborted and taken the shallow grassy ditch, but then I didn't lose much skin.

Nevermind me, I'm here for the beer and coaching and BS and devilment. :D

[FMS rider]

You sit very nicely on the bike boss. First things first, find a good comfortable position that allows full use (brakes too) of the drops.

Thanks for what I will take as a complement, even though my fitter, Colin O'Brien, is responsible. With my current position I often ride for 30mins or more in the drops, uninterrupted, with no discomfort and have easy reach to the brake levers (using an FSA compact with traditional bend). So I believe I am solidly on first base.

I also was able to do two descents from the Parkway near Asheville (on 151 and 276) at speeds that provided thrills that I still feel (on one descent I drafted a trio of young motorcyclists most of the way down). However I felt that I was closer to the edge than any normal human being would let themselves reach (I have a congenital absence of fear that was further fostered by >2 decades of serious rock climbing). After mulling that around I came to the conclusion that I owe it to my wonderful loving wife and my two warm-hearted 20-something kids to hone my descending skills as much as my old body will allow before tackling some of the classic climbs in the Alps, which I have to do --negotiating that dream with my type-T dominant hemisphere is completely out of the question. That, together with a couple of recent near-misses in local city riding (where the absence of fear also gets me into trouble), is why I started doing cornering drills as soon as I returned from Asheville.

Soooo, any helpful suggestions (other than immediate hospitalization in a mental health facility) would be greatly appreciated.

Lew

[davids]

I'm working on this skill, too.

There's a 90 degree corner on the bikepath that's part of my morning loop. The path is (I'm estimating) 10' wide, and it's a true right-angle corner. Last year, I'd drop down to about 16mph. Today, I did it at 21.

I can tell that I'm nowhere near my limit - the tires aren't even beginning to break away - but I'm going to let my speed creep up slowly. I'm cautious that way, and I know I'll panic and hit the brakes if I don't up the speed by tiny increments.

[Sasha]

Thanks everyone. I have a handle on the skills involved (apex, relaxed, drops, weight properly distributed). What TooTall desbribes is precisely the drill I'm doing. I've watched a lot of racing. My take away from the 1/2 race is that I can always corner much faster. But I don't. Assuming my form is decent, then it's a matter of confidence and practice.

So, Flux, TT, what's a good rate for cornering at speed. Just a raw number. It can be conservative. I'm confident you can both corner a lot faster than me. In the tour of California, say in the those final circuits in Sacramento, what is the pace of the pack?

[FMS rider]

I have picked up a number of practical tips on this thread that should be quite useful in my solitary quest, but I would like to return to my original question: does anyone know of a video taken of a corner-master executing drills, perhaps together with struggling non-masters so the elements of good form would be more apparent?

I should probably go stand on a sharp corner at a local crit, but when I have the time I always want to ride rather than watch. I have watched many race videos, but have never found them to be very useful technique-wise.

I simply want to get a feel for what is humanly possible as a goal to work toward --am I still outside the ballpark? 1/4th of the way there? etc

Lew

[hupomone]

I find that it is much easier to corner fast in a race than on my own. I guess this is because I am totally focused on the race and the speed is what ever it needs to be to maintain my desired position. That being said I have never specifically looked at speed while cornering but it seems like in the situation you describe high 20s low 30s should be obtainable for most people atmo.

hup

[FMS rider]

My apologies for the hijack, but I want to say that I have come to my senses and decided that I need professional help (as opposed to "professional help" of the Swoopian kind), and have inquired about a training camp that a certain really really tall guy holds in the Blue Ridge Range. He runs it with graded groups and has assured me that an old slow guy won't be a load on everyone else as long as he shows up in condition (which will not be a issue in view of my passion for Wisconsin-winter riding).

I am, of course, expecting a substantial discount from the free publicity.

Lew